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ditton
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#41 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 10:59 am |
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(having posted on this topic on ZG, I thought I should do so here, but am supposing these two threads intertwine.)
I very much welcome the attempt to come to objective summary about a topic (hifi kit and sound quality) that requires subjective judgement, and add my congrats to those involved. That said, there is scope to improve the methodology - and I'm among those who are at fault for not assisting before the tests were carried out - mea culpa.
I quite like the summary given by Mosfet on ZG,
http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141694&postcount=24
Some comments on (future) methodology:
This is a quasi-experiment, in which we have two principal sources of variation: hifi kit (the cables in this instance) and human perception (the judges - a better term that testers here I think). However much respect I have for the judges, and I do for our local heroes, we need to include assessment of the variation in their judgement as part of the problem (about which more later/below).
For all talk of sample sizes and statistical significance, we need to distinguish between two types of generalisation/statistical inference one wants to make in quasi/actual experiments:
1) internal
2) external.
The first, internal/experiment, is aimed at about being sure that the result (no difference, better, worse) of the experiment is more than could reasonably be expected than by chance (or by the variation due to the judging/perception). The sample size and inference is all about the test statistic and its properties within the design parameters of the experiment. It could be done with few judges and few measurements - its a matter of doing the sums.
[I read 'I deliberately did not record who made which observations because I was anxious that this should be a test of cables, not of people'. Shame, as this reduces the power of the test, and so I would guess that the number of judges would likely have to be larger than 3 or 4. Essentially, the judges are the measurement instrument, and as such contribute to total variance; the identity of the reliability of each judge would have to be confidential of course!!]
The second, 'external', is aimed at generalising beyond the setting of the experiment, towards the everyday. The sample size and inference is partly a matter of PR acceptability, as there is no obvious target population we wish to make inference to, nor is there any random sampling from that population involved in selecting the judges. I suggest that we ignore the PR factor (for which n > 30 would be the general position) and concentrates of generalising thesetting - which means musictype/system as well as thinking more about those judges.
For the first, we want a setting that would allow any possible differences to be discerned by the judges - the better the system & the recording, then the more likely that the 'marginal' benefit of a specialist cable is discernible.
[need to decide whether its the impact on the CDP or the amp that's most important - as a Bel Canto (power)amp owner, I suspect that's greatest potential impact, or at least use of bc amp might hide impact further up.]
A lot depends on what the purpose is here, and hence choice of test statistic & design, and sample sizes etc. For me I would be interested in detecting:
a) [no] discernible differences between out-of-the-box & specialist cable
b) nature of discernible change due to specialist cable
And for this I would trust a panel of judges of the calibre as used here. As with tea-tasting, I would expect some to be better judges than others. I also have preferences when it comes to tea.
I also like the minimal A/B difference approach, but it has its critics. As a test of the judges the use of A/A placebo seems useful, but this would have to be factored into the experimental design in order to make best of this in these trials.
Measurement: each judge to assess (& score) 'difference' between two given sessions for each 'product pair' wrt sound quality, as apparent or not apparent (1, 0), and if apparent, say whether they liked, disliked or were indifferent (1, -1, 0) to that difference.
Create a data record for each judge (j=1, J) and 'product pair' (k=1, K).
Need to derive a test statistic, or two, or three ...
on whether hifi cables make apparent difference
on whether this is thought beneficial
Here we sum over i, j - that is all judges & products. But the analysis could also examine consistency wrt judges, and wrt products.
I suggest that the dataset codes judges and products, with identifying codes are kept separately.
hth
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technobear
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#42 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 11:01 am |
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First, I am not bothered about anonymity. Publish if you want to Paul!
(But then I was the one who spotted the 'control' test  ).
Nice to know I'm not hearing things.
I didn't always like what the aftermarket cable did and in most cases preferred the stock cable. What this says to me is that different cables have different sonic characteristics and that if you want to use one to improve your system, you should demo several, preferably at home, with a wide selection of musical styles.
I think it would be interesting to analyse the musical preferences of the judges, especially whether they err towards flat-earth or round-earth presentation. Some of the cables were distinctly flat-earth whilst at least one of them was round-earth in spades.
I think it would have been useful to repeat the 5 tests with the cables reversed (so A-B becomes B-A). The music for each pair would have to be different and the judges would have to be unaware that this was being done. It would show whether the judges were consistent in their preference. I do worry though that the choice of music will influence the outcome.
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earl of sodbury
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#43 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 12:11 pm |
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Having been away yesterday, I return without time or brain cells to answer every hindsight-enriched criticism of the test we conducted, and I'm afraid I can't - even if I wanted to - name who scored what, because I genuinely didn't record it: exactly because someone was bound to pipe-up and say "oh well, the results of the test are invalid because Listener X is a cloth-eared twat"!
Am I really the only one here that's surprised by this somewhat inconclusive result? There's no way round the fact that to assemble a panel of listeners you're going to have to use a system they're unfamliar with, and that panel is bound to have significant expectations and pre-conceptions since they already know there are different bits of kit being used - we can only be objective up to a point...
IME the main way the test could have been improved was by not playing the music so bloody loud! I thought I liked it loud until I met you lot, but was nursing a headache by the time I stumbled back to my car! ;)
Clearly the biggest problem was the tiny number of participants, please lets have a few more of you putting your money where your mouth is next time - we should have a minimum of 5 before proceeding - it was a thoroughly enjoyable way to spend some time, usefully sociable given our otherwise solitary vice... 
Using only one piece of music throughout the test would accelerate listener fatigue AND only highlight a limited range of musical chacteristics - both would undermine the validity of the test; we deliberately let the testers choose the music so that we could have at least 1 familiar element in the test.
In spite of how the photos make it look, both the screen and myself were positioned wel out of the speakers firing-line - I remained crouched, uncomfortably, below the screen throughout - no mean feat for a porky old fucker like me... ;)
And for what little it's worth - from my odd, but very proximal listeing position I was surprised by how some cables appeared to change the sound - the RA and Power Snakes making no discernible difference, while the Kubala Sosna and Black Rhodium both made what seemed to me remarkable improvements in clarity and definition - with the KubSos I'd expected something from such a wacky-looking thing, but the BlackRho surprised me as it's a modest-looking cable and I'd thought "another RA job"... Of course this is meaningless since I knew which was what... ;)
Thanks again to Tony, Chris, Chris and Gary for having the guts to actually stand-up and be counted - a truly brave thing in this bear-pit!
churz, eofs
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Mr Coherent
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#44 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 12:21 pm |
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MIB,
In that particular test I prefered the R/A (really I Know) from where I was listening and the TRACK being played it produced the most pleasing to MY ears. Though the other 2 cables made more of a difference, wheather the difference was liked on that particular test track was a matter for personal taste I feel.
It wasn't designed to make people go a buy a mains lead, it was merely a genuine attempt to try an assertain wheather or not people could detect ANY difference.
When the system was put back to normal configuration, the Sonsa produced the more disconcernable and pleasing results. However still a fair way off the systems standard power lead performance.
Ditton,
To use the power lead on the B/C I think would distort the results,
The Belcanto's do respond to mains more so than a lot of other equipment, so to use the amp could have been seen as 'guilding the lilly'
The B/C Evo 2i was hooked up the the Transendence and Connoiseur mains cables attacthed during the test.
Remember to that the analogue interconnects from the cdp to the amp we also control items VDH units.
I also share Techonobears concern over the music having an influence on the outcome.
Mr.C
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Sony6million
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#45 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 12:29 pm |
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I really enjoyed reading that, especially as the russ andrews got 2 thumbs up, it made me laugh out loud! I'm not bothered about the results, just wish I could have taken part.
It sounded like a good day and it would be good if the mags did similar stuff. The HiFi+ blind test on interconnects was a good read.
Well done for giving it a bash anyway.
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#46 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 12:31 pm |
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oh, and it still wont stop me trying out the RA 50% off mailshot offer 
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mosfet
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#47 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 12:55 pm |
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I for one will stick with my own findings (real or imagined) until then
This is your conclusion AK and as good as anyone else’s.
If nothing else it’s interesting to see the spread of conclusions, they way in which the results are being seen by different people to fit with their existing beliefs / opinions / understanding (delete as applicable).
I doubt if you took the same folk etc and repeated the test, that the results would be the same
I doubt this also. What I have little doubt of is the results would be just as random again with no clear result for the hi-fi power cables with the standard IEC mains cable scoring just as well.
but to hang hypothesis on these results is foolish
from Conclusions
The attempted objective of the test was to disprove the hypothesis:
“The reason hi-fi power cables work to improve some aspect of subjective hi-fi performance is because of pre-formed opinion or expectancy on the part of the listener that they will rather than the design of the hi-fi power cable itself”
and to do something the hi-fi magazines are failing to do.
To properly disprove the hypothesis was always well outside of what could feasibly be achieved - however this was the point to aim for.
What has been achieved is a set of test results that can be considered as you wish.
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notaclue
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#48 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 02:16 pm |
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Basically, anybody could have had a go at guessing the audiophile power cable (without even attending the test and listening) and gotten the sort of results we saw in the test.
I don't think getting more and more people to do more and more tests would be useful - I expect the results would just get ever closer to exactly 50%.
To prove that power cables are audible requires just ONE person. If (and it is a big 'if') power cables are audible then I imagine you would need an experienced listener who is listening in a familiar environment using two cables that they are certain they do hear differences between. This would give the greatest chance of success.
My feeling is that is impossible to do this. I am sure that somebody would have been able to do it by now if it were. Again, thinking about it logically, I feel the idea that we can hear the real, physical influence a metre of cable providing electricity to a box of electronic bits and bobs has is just not logical*. It is a fanciful idea.
* Assuming both cables are working properly and not in any way 'broken'
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#49 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 02:20 pm |
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Basically, anybody could have had a go at guessing the audiophile power cable (without even attending the test and listening) and gotten the sort of results we saw in the test.
lol ^^^^
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earl of sodbury
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#50 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 02:49 pm |
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| I suspect, conducting the test as we did, that Notaclue's basically right.
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#51 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 03:04 pm |
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earl of sodbury wrote: I suspect, conducting the test as we did, that Notaclue's basically right.
Notty's observations are always acute and vital. It takes only a few select words from him to undo entire paragraphs summarising the findings from a power test.
May I propose he be the organiser of the next supertest? It will be interesting to see what kind of unorthodox methods he may use to tease out an irrefutable conclusion. Maybe place the test subjects on haemorroid doughnut-cushions to improve the listeners' isolation from vibrations (which do distort sensory perception)? 
Last edited on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 03:05 pm by SSM
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7V
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#52 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 03:30 pm |
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And, in a similar vein, couldn't we repeat the experiment using the power of suggestion to convince the believers that there is no difference and the non-believers that there is?
Surely there's an NLP'er out there who could oblige.
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analoguekid
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#53 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 03:33 pm |
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7V wrote: And, in a similar vein, couldn't we repeat the experiment using the power of suggestion to convince the believers that there is no difference and the non-believers that there is?
Surely there's an NLP'er out there who could oblige.
nuero linguistic programming, there is no hiding, we can tell ya know, Steve I bet all the non- believers are AD and the believers will be auditory or visuals, butr mostly visuals.Last edited on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 03:34 pm by
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notaclue
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#54 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 05:50 pm |
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Of course, the problem with testing a specific listener's claim (i.e., "I hear differences between these cables on this system") is what happens when... I mean if, the listener fails. We are then dangerously close to concluding that they couldn't actually hear a difference so it is understandable if people are reluctant to be put to the test.
Also, it does carry quite a bit of pressure and this may influence the test and cause failure. Thankfully, everyday across the world, many, many men and women find themselves under pressure and yet are still capable of doing what is required. From surgeons to airline pilots to students sitting exams
The true test of a 100m runner is when under pressure in competition - it is here when world records are set, not on the practice track.
So should somebody be able to pick a cable out 10 times out of 10 or 15 out of 15 if they are an expert listener and there really is a difference? I would say that at least someone should be able to do this.
Last edited on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 05:52 pm by notaclue
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#55 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 07:41 pm |
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That, and your previous thoughts are, N.A.C. getting dangerously close to the truth that none of us will own up to, which is really tres simple.
A difference exists if YOU can hear it.
end of story.
(which is why I am glad of the opportunity to take part in Kiangs offering on another thread near here, so that I can try a few for myself and make my mind up)
I suppose there are people in life who only trust the opinions of others (no disrespect to the testers).. I assume that those same people read hi fi mags and then just go out and buy reccomended kit without hearing it, and logically buy cars the same way and choose their partners because a friend said they were nice, but not me brother, oh no. If I suck it and it don't taste right, I'm spitting it right out again!Last edited on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 07:46 pm by rockmeister
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#56 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 08:07 pm |
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It also seems to me that the people doing the moaning do the most changing of equipment.
I will of course get slated for this comment. It took nerve,bottle or what ever you want to call it to sit and do a test of any kind ,when they knew that they were going to get whinged at . Most people wanted to know if there was a difference between the cables but it was a shame that it was a small panel of testers.There was a small difference either like it or lump it.
Thanks again to the testers i found it interseting and look forward to Kiang test.They are 260 members on this forum and 260 results should be recorded. Or are people running scared.You may have to pay a couple of quid p&p to send the cable to the next tester or hundreds of pounds on different power cables.This may help save money.
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#57 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 08:08 pm |
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purplepleaser wrote: It also seems to me that the people doing the moaning do the most changing of equipment.
I will of course get slated for this comment. It took nerve,bottle or what ever you want to call it to sit and do a test of any kind ,when they knew that they were going to get whinged at . Most people wanted to know if there was a difference between the cables but it was a shame that it was a small panel of testers.There was a small difference either like it or lump it.
Thanks again to the testers i found it interseting and look forward to Kiang test.They are 260 members on this forum and 260 results should be recorded. Or are people running scared.You may have to pay a couple of quid p&p to send the cable to the next tester or hundreds of pounds on different power cables.This may help save money.
Lee
Well said sir!
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#58 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 08:29 pm |
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rockmeister wrote: That, and your previous thoughts are, N.A.C. getting dangerously close to the truth that none of us will own up to, which is really tres simple.
A difference exists if YOU can hear it.
end of story.
Well, maybe not quite the end.
If I think that my system is sounding better tonight, then is it sounding better to me?
"I think therefore it is"?
Last edited on Wed Sep 28th, 2005 08:31 pm by 7V
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#59 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 09:35 pm |
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If I think that my system is sounding better tonight, then is it sounding better to me?
My system also invariably sounds better in the evening 7_V.
It always has done right back to the day of my Dual / Rotel / Acoustic Research system and QED 79 strand was all that was needed (and RA was still flogging caps and inductors from a photocopied A4 booklet!).
I believe this is real but how the buggery would you control for this under testing without sensory confusion of time of day!
I also think this is down to what comes out of my wall socket – I don’t think a mains cable can recreate these preferable conditions.
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#60 Posted: Wed Sep 28th, 2005 09:57 pm |
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Mosfet Wrote
"I also think this is down to what comes out of my wall socket – I don’t think a mains cable can recreate these preferable conditions."
It won't give the TOTAL desired result on its own IMO, however if the rest of the system is transaparent enough it will *transparent does not mean expensive*
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