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Effem
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#361 Posted: Tue Jun 6th, 2006 10:21 pm |
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The word under scrutiny with me right now is "HUGE".
Differences in presentation yes, changes in tonal colours yes, big magnitudes of differences, no. I also think judging sighted is a big error to make because strangely enough the amp I liked least has a black colour and I don't like black. Cost may play a similar role too, because it cost the least and has an unpopular badge. Yet, would that situation change if I was blind to what it was and it might in reality produce the best sound of the four? This is what I need to find out and it's not entirely unrelated to the cable test that has just been carried out, because "differences" were there too but the magnitude is somewhat questionable, coupled with people's hearing perceptions and a dozen other variables as well. Uniform it certainly wasn't.
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mosfet
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#362 Posted: Tue Jun 6th, 2006 11:40 pm |
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HFWW wrote:
Hardly likely to change the opinion of anyone still posting eh?
Nail and head there.
The aftermath of these tests is quite familiar. Those who find their experience or beliefs challenged by contrary findings busy themselves looking for confounding reasons why this cannot be so. Sometimes quite desperately. It’s a natural reaction when beliefs or personal experience are challenged.
I’m not sure how I would have reacted if the findings had been significantly in favour of the expensive audiophile cable. Would I have looked for flaws, presented criticisms or shouted yaa-boo sucks? I’d like to think I’d be able to put the ego in a jam jar and say, yes, that’s good evidence for the efficacy of audiophile power cables. It would have been interesting.
In any case the convictions of some, of either point of view, will not change irrespective of how robust the evidence. Someone give NASA a call, see if they’re interested in doing the next one. ;)
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Kiang
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#363 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 12:43 am |
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Well here are the results as they stand now with the data acquired.These have been compiled with the help of Pio.
Comments have been made regarding the kit the cable was used on etc.
The various views of the testers are quoted as well - just to show that testers took the test seriously and did indeed believe that they heard differences.
Differences like these are percieved by all in many walks of life and in no way should it detract you from the appreciation of good sound/music. I many ways this also makes us unique and in the long run only serves to enrich our race.
It is my view that those that do not hear these differences in all probability do not sit in a different box but occupy one end of what is a wide spectrum essentially.
So "enjoy" the findings of the test in good humour .
I will publish my own interpretation of the test in a discussion in a few days - the very lively debate on here is useful as it helps in collating the held views and concerns as regards the test and audiophile cables in general. The final discussion (commentary) is just to round of "the great cable debate" which will be archived in the wigwam;)
http://www.auricles.com/new_page_35.htm
You need to download the excel spreadsheet.
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notaclue
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#364 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 10:59 am |
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Nice work, Kiang.
Have had a brief look and listener 5's comments are particularly striking.
Note that listener 5 thought C (kettle lead) was the best cable and thought B was the worst cable and the kettle lead. And listener 5 felt it was easy to match the kettle lead.
In essense, listener 5 is describing a kettle lead for both his best and worst cables (and, indeed, says C is much better than D). Yet, just look at the descriptions.
A striking example.
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#365 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 11:04 am |
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i hope this doesn't turn into an opportunity for some people to point, laugh and ridicule those who may have got it wrong.
not saying you are notaclue, just that it could be interpreted that way if people haven't followed your other postings in this thread.
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#366 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 12:30 pm |
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Thank you for publishing this, Kiang. I find these data more interesting that mere statistics.
We can see 8 listeners having found cable C clearly better than itself (cable D).
That's why I wanted someone to check again that cable C was indeed the other kettle lead. As far as I understood, cable C was never opened. Tones just found something that looked like a DIY cable in the B one, and by elimination, said that cable C should be the kettle lead.
Six of them think that this cable is worth more than 30 £ after having compared it at home against itself with their own ears. Two of them even reaching 100 £.
Three of them found cable C to be much better than cable D.
And one of them said it was easy to identify D as B (while D was indeed C), and he even double checked in order to confirm that there was no mistake : D was really sounding like B.
All the above confirms my own experience. I certainly won't make fun of these testers, because I would be the first one to make mistakes as big as they did in a blind test ! I've undergone around one hundred ABX tests, and in some cases, my ears heard obvious differences between twice the same source.
Some people always says that "they know what they hear", "no blind test is required", "differences are obvious", "maths can't explain emotion"... And when hardcore skeptics try to argue with them, they answer "just listen !".
That's right, one should not say that cable make no differences until he has actually listened to one. But in the same way, I think that one should not tell that "he can trust his ears" until he has not actually tried a well designed blind listening test.
Physics can bring some knowledge about sound reproduction and hearing, but in subvectivist vs objectivist discussions, there are far too much arguing, and far too little listening. So hats off for Kiang, and all the testers, who all did something constructive instead of just sitting and arguing.
My conclusion is that the test didn't show that the power cables used had any effect on the gear they were used with (except on the listener), which is not a very interesting finding, because there can be a lot of explanations, but it showed that not all "obvious differences" are real. And this is, in my opinion, a very interesting observation.
I can but repeat it : if you really want to know if a difference is in your mind or in your hifi, try a blind test !
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#367 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 12:51 pm |
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Very good post Poi unfortunately not all the sceptics that argue are as diplomatic as you, and neither do they come on these fora in search of answers, as you seem to do, a lot wanted this test to show their POV to enable them to have a stick to win arguments, not to further science, I also note that some of the most vocal "sceptics" in this thread, never bothered to take part, yet jump in with negative comments when the results are anounced, says a lot IMO 
My position has not changed due to being in this test, some think I'm a hardened believer but the'yd be wrong, those that know me know my views and thats more impoortant to me, the test was interesting, and none of the wires were as good as the mains I'm currently using on my cdp, which has a filter network built in, I was a little dissapointed to note that the cables were in fact one home made and one less than £100, I felt these have never really been questioned, the real consternation lies with the stuff over £250 etc (IME) i was under the impression that the cables were either well known or expensive, the home made one I feel was not conducive to the test, I felt perhaps a £100 and a £300 might have been better and may have given different results as would using them on amps, but I do understand the practicality/cost issues involved, and thank Kinag and PIO for their efforts in keeping it as clean and unsullied by opnion as possible.
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tones
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#368 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 01:13 pm |
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Pio2001 wrote: As far as I understood, cable C was never opened. Tones just found something that looked like a DIY cable in the B one, and by elimination, said that cable C should be the kettle lead.
No, I opened all three. All were labelled inside the shrink wrapping used to camouflage them and make them seem identical (excellent job!), so I gave the wrong results only if those labels were wrong.Last edited on Wed Jun 7th, 2006 01:15 pm by tones
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ditton
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#369 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 01:14 pm |
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| ditto from ditton [to AK's post] Last edited on Wed Jun 7th, 2006 01:15 pm by ditton
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earl of sodbury
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#370 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 01:46 pm |
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This has been a really interesting and I think thoroughly worthwhile exercise, thanks to all who had the audioballs to take part, and especially to Kiang for organising it.
There were really two major components for me, one being the discrimination test (I failed it BTW), the other being a chance to chart preferences.
On the latter, my opinion (based on a variety of DIY and retail efforts) is that differences in copper cables are of limited significance, but that introducing silver of sufficient CSA will yield a small subjective preference bias.
...and it's here that the stats are interesting, with strongly polarised opinions of which was subjectively the "Best Cable". Among the 19 who expressed a preference: just 2 (~10%) preferred B - the deliberately poorly-perfoming cable, while 7 (~37%) preferred A (silver), and 10 (~53%) preferred C - the copper cable.... Here it seems that a deep-seated bilateral preference is expressed, and additionally, almost unconciously the deliberately malengineered cable was rejected...
The point of this rambling is that this test (and all similar tests mediated by human subjectivity) will always have their results skewed by what the listeners prefer subjectively, even when those listeners are trying their best to be objective.
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wolfgang
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#371 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 04:11 pm |
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Among the 19 who expressed a preference: just 2 (~10%) preferred B - the deliberately poorly-perfoming cable, while 7 (~37%) preferred A (silver), and 10 (~53%) preferred C - the copper cable.... Here it seems that a deep-seated bilateral preference is expressed, and additionally, almost unconciously the deliberately malengineered cable was rejected...
Correct me if I am was wrong here some one..... I believed Kiang's homemade cable was not a mal-engineered version but one that he made himself according to his understanding and experiences what should constitute a good mains cable. In the same way that branded version available for sale was also designed just by another man with what his understanding should constitute a good mains cable.
Secondly you lump the preferences of all 19 people including those who did not managed to identified the pair of kettle cords correctly. Personnelly I would find it very difficult to put any value to those subjective opinions especially the 8 listeners who claimed to have found cable C clearly better than the identical D cable and the others who did not managed to identify the pair correctly. How come if they really did heard differences that were real and not imagined would they not managed to identify the correct pair?
All we could assumed was perhaps (maybe these cables do sound different but) these listeners have focused on the wrong characteristics and just imagined they heard some thing that were not real. So their opinions have doubtful value. I am pointing this out not because I wanted to rub it in for being one who managed to correctly identify the kettle cords but looking at my notes the list of preferences did not make sense as Pio pointed out. Therefore, it could very well just by chance I've identified the correct pair but imagined the difference I thought I heard too. There is not way to be sure other then maybe repeat the test.
The real fact is as everyone including the annoying Notaclue pointed out ...... if the assumption that there were actually not real audible differences between these 3 cables ...... there is going to be only 2 outcome. Firstly many would admit they can't detect any differences. However, for those who still tried only a 1/3 will give the correct answers and 2/3 wrong. The result we got was as predicted. So again after this test we have to admit the assumption was certainly...... very likely true.Last edited on Wed Jun 7th, 2006 04:16 pm by wolfgang
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notaclue
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#372 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 04:54 pm |
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Anthony wrote: i hope this doesn't turn into an opportunity for some people to point, laugh and ridicule those who may have got it wrong.
not saying you are notaclue, just that it could be interpreted that way if people haven't followed your other postings in this thread.
No. I don't think anyone is going to do that.
I believe a test like this shows just what a huge influence our mind has on what we hear. Indeed, it may well be that in the power cable test the mind was the only influence on what was heard.
So perhaps enjoying and being satisfied with the sound of our hi-fi system's is more about us than about having the latest and greatest kit?
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earl of sodbury
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#373 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 04:55 pm |
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wolfgang wrote: Correct me if I am was wrong here some one..... I believed Kiang's homemade cable was not a mal-engineered version but one that he made himself according to his understanding and experiences what should constitute a good mains cable. In the same way that branded version available for sale was also designed just by another man with what his understanding should constitute a good mains cable.
You're wrong: "B : DIY power cable made especially to sound bad(in theory)" see: http://www.auricles.com/Kiang_Power_cable_test(2).xls
All we could assumed was perhaps (maybe these cables do sound different but) these listeners have focused on the wrong characteristics and just imagined they heard some thing that were not real. So their opinions have doubtful value. I am pointing this out not because I wanted to rub it in for being one who managed to correctly identify the kettle cords but looking at my notes the list of preferences did not make sense as Pio pointed out. Therefore, it could very well just by chance I've identified the correct pair but imagined the difference I thought I heard too. There is not way to be sure other then maybe repeat the test.
The real fact is as everyone including the annoying Notaclue pointed out ...... if the assumption that there were actually not real audible differences between these 3 cables ...... there is going to be only 2 outcome. Firstly many would admit they can't detect any differences. However, for those who still tried only a 1/3 will give the correct answers and 2/3 wrong. The result we got was as predicted. So again after this test we have to admit the assumption was certainly...... very likely true.
You misunderstand my observation, I was not talking about the (supposedly) simple act of objectively discriminating one cable from another, but noting how subjective bias is expressed in this test, especially the polarising effect on preference of silver versus copper cable. It's not about right or wrong, opinions can never be authoritative - except for the individual possessing them, and I am not trying to assert that power cables have any special value above their current-carrying capacity.
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Anthony
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#374 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 05:16 pm |
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earl of sodbury wrote: You're wrong: "B : DIY power cable made especially to sound bad(in theory)" see: http://www.auricles.com/Kiang_Power_cable_test(2).xls
which makes it even funnier that i chose it as my favourite! the following comments were used by me on my result sheet:
Seemed more detailed. Appeared to have more complex and more engaging texture and tone. More engaging. maybe created a sense of depth.
then again i could have just imagined it!
------------------
so, in theory bad, in practice good (for me). much like hard drugs and S&M , alledgedly.
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#375 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 06:45 pm |
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Thank you Kiang for the XL results 
I'd just like tom repeat that this whole palava has mainly been a lot of FUN. I really enjoyed doing it and learned something worthwhile (that saved me a few pennies  too).
I'm definitely up for the next test that someone devises. 
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rockmeister
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#376 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 07:37 pm |
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"...Indeed, it may well be that in the power cable test the mind was the only influence on what was heard."
Nope...I assure you that I was equally influenced by the three large gins that I had during the test...and I still got it 'right'
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Davewhityetagain
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#377 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 07:50 pm |
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Well just read the whole thread and the results....................
Very very interesting.......... will people who could not tell any differance and thought the cheap cable was fantastic sell all expensive cables and leads.... is that going far enough ? if they have an expensive system should they sell up and buy a DAB radio
? too early to tell
The only thing I can think of so far, its going to need some serious thinking time
I think there was not enough differance in value between expensive and cheap cables
but even that does not sit well, as some very expensive (£800) plus cables, could sound like kettle cables
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Hawk
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#378 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 08:28 pm |
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There is little I can add to what has already been said at some length, but I would like to extend my thanks to Kiang for organising the test, and to Pio for his input. Its a shame that it wasnt conclusive, but thats life ;)
Thanks again guys
Hawk
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#379 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 09:05 pm |
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My hat is off to the people involved in this test.
However, here is why many more people need to be involved to test very subtle effects:
http://rapidshare.de/files/22471188/TestSensitivityAnalyzer.xls.html
The spreadsheet allows you to input various values for various statistical parameters.
If you want a test with a 95% confidence of not getting a false positive, and also a 95% confidence of not getting a false negative, and only 30% of the population is expected to be able to hear the subtle difference involved, you need 119 listeners (line 11 in the spreadsheet).
If you want 99% confidence of not getting a false positive with the other parameters the same (Pio was saying he wanted 99.5% confidence), then you need 174 listeners.
With only 23 listeners, you can't say with much confidence that you didn't falsely conclude there was no difference.
ff123
Edit: oops, that spreadsheet assumed a 50% chance of guessing correctly. With this test, there's a 33.3% chance of guessing correctly, so the number of listeners needed (30% expected to be able to hear a difference) are about 73 and 97 people, respectively, which is still a lot.
Last edited on Wed Jun 7th, 2006 09:27 pm by ff123
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#380 Posted: Wed Jun 7th, 2006 09:09 pm |
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notaclue wrote: Anthony wrote: i hope this doesn't turn into an opportunity for some people to point, laugh and ridicule those who may have got it wrong.
not saying you are notaclue, just that it could be interpreted that way if people haven't followed your other postings in this thread.
No. I don't think anyone is going to do that.
I believe a test like this shows just what a huge influence our mind has on what we hear. Indeed, it may well be that in the power cable test the mind was the only influence on what was heard.
So perhaps enjoying and being satisfied with the sound of our hi-fi system's is more about us than about having the latest and greatest kit?
spot on notaclue good post
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