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SSM
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#41 Posted: Sat Oct 22nd, 2005 08:11 pm |
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You stopped my heart for a moment.;) The whole purpose for Wagner composing this 4 hour cement-freezer is just so he could provide some light divertisement before the grand Liebestod.
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Logan
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#42 Posted: Mon Oct 31st, 2005 03:58 am |
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The poster who had a crack at the US Good Music Guide forum was spot on. I gave up on it and deleted because I got sick of reading "reviews" and opinions of people who openly admitted that they had never heard recordings they were passing opinion upon.
Now I find three examples of this in the present thread. Being open-minded is one thing, but being ignorant and proudly admitting it is another. I have heard (and own) both the Karajan/Vickers/Dernesch and the Pappano/Domingo/Stemm Tristans. Neither is perfect but I find much to enjoy in both of these (alternative) approaches, so both will receive equal air time.
But I could be guilty of the same sin. The Tristan nobody has mentioned is the Carlos Kleiber/Kollo/Margaret Price version. I have this on vinyl, and although I've tried playing it a few times I must confess I've never really heard it. From the few distant and indisatinct noises that I can discern from the engineers who placed the mikes about a kilometre from the singers and orchestra I believe that a great and unique performance may have teken place. A pity that we weren't allowed to hear it.
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SSM
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#43 Posted: Mon Oct 31st, 2005 03:04 pm |
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Logan wrote: Now I find three examples of this in the present thread. Being open-minded is one thing, but being ignorant and proudly admitting it is another. I have heard (and own) both the Karajan/Vickers/Dernesch and the Pappano/Domingo/Stemm Tristans. Neither is perfect but I find much to enjoy in both of these (alternative) approaches, so both will receive equal air time.
But I could be guilty of the same sin. The Tristan nobody has mentioned is the Carlos Kleiber/Kollo/Margaret Price version. I have this on vinyl, and although I've tried playing it a few times I must confess I've never really heard it. From the few distant and indisatinct noises that I can discern from the engineers who placed the mikes about a kilometre from the singers and orchestra I believe that a great and unique performance may have teken place. A pity that we weren't allowed to hear it.
FYI, I am a Tristan connoiseur and have at one point owned and listened to every available Tristan recording :lmao: :lmao: before selling off the ones I don't like. The latest ones I have yet to be acquainted with are the Heppner and Domingo.
I don't see how I am being "ignorant yet proudly admitting it" when I said I will not buy the Domingo /Pappano one even if I have not heard it personally. I have been a close follower of the classical reviews on the newsgroup <rec.music.classical.recordings>, Amazon and other classical music sites. I even know some of the regulars personally, and have in the past found their criticisms of new CD releases incredibly spot-on. THAT IS, when I made the mistake of buying those releases even when my friends' reviews have indicated that the conductors and soloists have performed it contrary to my expectations.:Upset:
Soooo, when a trusted reviewer/friend on Amazon whose tastes I am sympathetic with describes the Pappano Tristan as being rather Italianate in execution, I already know it won't be to my tastes either for I don't want my Wagner done that way. After so many Tristans, I have become rather jaded and fixed in my tastes and don't want to waste money on a new recording which is only going to be another shiny coaster.
That is all.
btw, the Kleiber Tristan has already been surveyed by little moi in the HFC forum. Dunno about its sound quality on vinyl but the first CD release, although slightly soft, can be appreciated to full effect through my 2 MF amps - 55W & 105W. Its latest remastered incarnation, on the DG Legendary Recordings series, is better albeit slighty drier in ambience than the first pressing.
Happy Halloween, ya Kiwi!*
Trick or treat? Fush or chups?
Cheers
*deleted the sheepshagging emoticon lest the admin raps my head 
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Glens of Antrim
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#44 Posted: Mon Oct 31st, 2005 06:42 pm |
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solidstateman wrote:
FYI, I am a Tristan connoiseur and have at one point owned and listened to every available Tristan recording :lmao::lmao: before selling off the ones I don't like. The latest ones I have yet to be acquainted with are the Heppner and Domingo.
I don't see how I am being "ignorant yet proudly admitting it" when I said I will not buy the Domingo /Pappano one even if I have not heard it personally. I have been a close follower of the classical reviews on the newsgroup <rec.music.classical.recordings>, Amazon and other classical music sites. I even know some of the regulars personally, and have in the past found their criticisms of new CD releases incredibly spot-on. THAT IS, when I made the mistake of buying those releases even when my friends' reviews have indicated that the conductors and soloists have performed it contrary to my expectations.:Upset:
Never mind Logan 'cause I'm going to buy the Pappano Tristan pretty soon on the strength of liking Sinopoli's Tannhauser & being blown away by the Domingo/Pappano Walkure in this season's Proms. I don't expect it to be the 'definative' Tristan because such an intrepretation will never exist imho; but going on my personal prejudices I rather think I'll like it Italianed up
BTW welcome to the Wigwam Logan 
GofA
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musicbox
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#45 Posted: Mon Oct 31st, 2005 07:26 pm |
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| I've heard tell the latest CD release of the Kleiber Tristan (a memorial edition) cleans up the sound a lot. But I hardly ever get the opportunity to listen to more than an hour of music at one sitting so I'm not tempted. Last edited on Mon Oct 31st, 2005 07:26 pm by musicbox
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wolfgang
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#46 Posted: Mon Oct 31st, 2005 11:00 pm |
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| Few years ago I thought I was ready for Wagner. So got a ticket to see SNO's Tristan. First hour was interesting. Mimimalist staging, complex music however, Isolde was a fat short girl. So not really sure what he really see in her. Second my bum starts to hurt and feeling hungry. During interval got some food and a book. Seriously wonder whether I should go back into the hall. Decided might as well go back but instantly realised it was a big mistake as it was too dark to read my book. After a few more painful hours ................. I am so glad I am born in a time that coincide with George Lucas and Peter Jackson. Now these are you can call real genius that have the ability to produce real Works of Art.
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SSM
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#47 Posted: Tue Nov 1st, 2005 04:05 am |
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wolfgang wrote: Few years ago I thought I was ready for Wagner. So got a ticket to see SNO's Tristan. First hour was interesting. Mimimalist staging, complex music however, Isolde was a fat short girl. So not really sure what he really see in her. Second my bum starts to hurt and feeling hungry. During interval got some food and a book. Seriously wonder whether I should go back into the hall. Decided might as well go back but instantly realised it was a big mistake as it was too dark to read my book. After a few more painful hours ................. I am so glad I am born in a time that coincide with George Lucas and Peter Jackson. Now these are you can call real genius that have the ability to produce real Works of Art.
ouch
A beautiful Isolde (who actually owns a waist) is an extremely rare species in Wagner stagings. If it all gets too gory for you on stage, just close your eyes, listen to the music and visualize Leonardo and Cameron Diaz as the starcrossed lovers.
 Tristan und Isolde: the reality
 Tristan und Isolde: what we want...
As for the bum pangs, be sure to wear silk boxers to a Wagner. High-cut mini jocks are a no-no. The hemlines will start sawing into your butt in less than an hour. 
At any rate, always support your local Wagner productions. If you don't, in the future many opera houses will be monopolized by Lloyd Webber musicals. :puke:
SS
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SSM
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#48 Posted: Tue Nov 1st, 2005 04:13 am |
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Glens of Antrim wrote: BTW welcome to the Wigwam Logan
GofA
Oh yes! Welcome to the Tent, Logan. We could use another Wagnerian presence here to help squelch the Baroque queens like Glens.;)
We are a friendly bunch here. Feel free to sit on my couch and explain why you like listening to Placido Domingo sing Wagner. 
Last edited on Tue Nov 1st, 2005 04:14 am by SSM
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Logan
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#49 Posted: Tue Nov 1st, 2005 10:58 am |
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solidstateman wrote:
Happy Halloween, ya Kiwi!*
Trick or treat? Fush or chups?
Cheers
*deleted the sheepshagging emoticon lest the admin raps my head
Thanks for the not unexpected welcome. I was welcomed onto another UK forum as "another bloody colonial" by a representative of a race which spent the 20th century impotently observing its colonies departing the fold and the Union Jack going down faster than a ......... . You get the drift.
While we're on the subject of both Tristan and vowel-mangling, it transpires that the adverse critics of Domingo in Wagner focus on his German pronunciation (as if ours is any better) and what you call his "Italianate" sound production. Putting aside for the moment the recorded fact that Wagner revered and envied Bellini of all composers, why do people worry about this when they are not in the least perturbed by the non-Teutonic influences of Wagnerian singers such as Flagstad, Nilsson, Melchior, Vickers, Crespin, McIntyre, Hunter, Tomlinson, Terfel etc. etc ? (Note - one New Zealander there, and his vowels were never remarked upon). And why do not the same critics work themselves into a frenzy about the enunciation of Björling in French and Italian opera and Sutherland in everything she sang ? How is it that Vickers could be generally acclaimed as an Otello, a Tristan/Siegmund, an Aeneus, and a superlative Peter Grimes without reference to his Canadian origins ? Why has Bryn Terfel escaped reproach for bringing the elements of the Welsh Male Voice Choir to Wotan? (I hear some Mozartian influences in his Falstaff, but I thinks that's for the better.)
My answer is that these singers exemplify tone production and musicality. I would rather hear Domingo bringing a florid element to the florid music of Tristan than to hear one of the long line of second-rate heldentenors of the last 50 years barking and bleating the role - getting the notes out but not the music. (Thankfully there were some German exceptions to this).
I respect and envy your faith in your critic friends. I on the other hand believe only in what I hear, and while I do read the critics I do so with a grain of salt, just as with the audio reviewers in the magazines. I am guided by them but am not necessarily convinced one way or the other until I hear for myself. There has been relatively little said about the Isolde of Nina Stemme in this Tristran - certainly no accusations of Italianate singing but strong indications that as she matures into this and other Wagnerian roles she may be the next Flagstad (in my view). And just as we waited for Terfel to turn his attention to Wotan at the right time, watch out in 10-15 years for a New Zealand/Samoan bass-baritone called Jonathan Lemalu. He might repeat this pattern. With good Germanic vowels.
P.S. Getting back to the inevitable sheep-shagging insult levelled at most New Zealanders (we don't like being called Kiwis), it may be of interest to know that the word derives from the Scottish Gaelic "shaggir" signifying illicit relations of a carnal nature (such as those indulged in by Tristan and Isolde). I'm of Scottish origin anyway so the characterisation washes over me. But I sometimes look at who was responsible for clearing the Clans from the Highlands in the 18th and 19th centuries and replacing them with sheep. Just what was the true English motive in this early exercise in ethnic cleansing? I prefer to hide out in the Antipodes while the heroic Lion of Basra brings his version of Enduring Freedom to Iraq, and I'll wait here until he turns his liberational attentions to Scotland and decides to repeal the 1707 Act of Union.
I think I'll be waiting a long time. But thanks for the welcome.
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earl of sodbury
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#50 Posted: Tue Nov 1st, 2005 02:17 pm |
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How amusing, a living breathing member of the "Wrong White Crowd" berating us for centuries-old colonial wrongs :raoflmfao:
Welcome onboard funny guy, churz, eofs
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SSM
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#51 Posted: Tue Nov 1st, 2005 03:38 pm |
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Gawd Logan. I got a mini migraine reading your big rebuttal. It's deja vue because the manner in which you argued your stance is soooo reminiscent of a royal scr*wing I once received from gay opera reporter James Jorden on an opera forum. He roasted me over the same points as you did: tone and musicality triumping over diction, & the merits of Joan Sutherland , Björling & Vickers.
I haven't the arsenal today to blast that rebuttal back point for point. So I shall just leave you with the link to JJ's delicious little opera website. It's a great read for opera fans who want the latest in opera goss. JJ has a wicked sense of humor and his reports aren't made up: he has close access to the the right people on the American opera circuit, and knows what he's talking about. I believe he has a thing for interviewing opera divas like Deborah Voight, Alessandra Marc, etc.
http://www.parterre.com/
http://www.parterre.com/editor.htm
Enjoy!
l'll be baaack... 
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SSM
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#52 Posted: Tue Nov 1st, 2005 03:46 pm |
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disclaimer: do not conclude that I'd insinuated you argue like an opera queer (JJ) 
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Glens of Antrim
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#53 Posted: Tue Nov 1st, 2005 06:29 pm |
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solidstateman wrote: Oh yes! Welcome to the Tent, Logan. We could use another Wagnerian presence here to help squelch the Baroque queens like Glens.;)
You called
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Logan
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#54 Posted: Tue Nov 1st, 2005 11:22 pm |
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Glens of Antrim wrote: solidstateman wrote: Oh yes! Welcome to the Tent, Logan. We could use another Wagnerian presence here to help squelch the Baroque queens like Glens.;)
You called
Yes, and I may well call again. I enjoy Verdi/Puccini/etc and G&S as well as Wagner so there'll be lots of stuff to discuss and debate.
Thanks Solidstatesman for the reference to the Parterre website. Hilarious and ridiculous. Which basically describes opera (apart from the music and the singing that is). The most seriously disturbing thing about addicted opera-affictionados is the fact that they take it seriously. To my mind the totality of the Wagner Ring cycle is about as profound as the series of Star Wars movies, but the music is somewhat better.
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#55 Posted: Wed Nov 2nd, 2005 01:48 am |
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Logan wrote: Glens of Antrim wrote: solidstateman wrote: Oh yes! Welcome to the Tent, Logan. We could use another Wagnerian presence here to help squelch the Baroque queens like Glens.;)
You called
The most seriously disturbing thing about addicted opera-affictionados is the fact that they take it seriously. To my mind the totality of the Wagner Ring cycle is about as profound as the series of Star Wars movies, but the music is somewhat better.
OMG
That's fighting talk Logan...G gets off side as 
Ought to be fun
G
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SSM
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#56 Posted: Wed Nov 2nd, 2005 01:34 pm |
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Logan wrote: Yes, and I may well call again. I enjoy Verdi/Puccini/etc and G&S as well as Wagner so there'll be lots of stuff to discuss and debate.
Thanks Solidstatesman for the reference to the Parterre website. Hilarious and ridiculous. Which basically describes opera (apart from the music and the singing that is). The most seriously disturbing thing about addicted opera-affictionados is the fact that they take it seriously. To my mind the totality of the Wagner Ring cycle is about as profound as the series of Star Wars movies, but the music is somewhat better.
G&S! Yuk! You should seek out a Mr StillTones on the HFC forum and the two of you can compose yer lamericks in honor of Gilbert.
Back to your previous ruminations on singers...
Whichever classical forum one frequents, it will be found that the opera section is the scene of more unresolved controversies caused by rivalling camps of the devotees of various singers. I reckon this is because --- unlike non-vocal orchestral performances where the merits of a conductor's recorded interpretation are easily ascertained by checking it against the score & tempi for that classical composition --- there is no actual failsafe barometer for gauging the artistic appeal of a particular opera singer. A singer may be technically accomplished but yet fail to garner a sizable band of admirers, while other singers may have flawed dictions (Sutherland) or failing top notes (Callas) yet their followers are legion. It is all very subjective here: which new singer rises to stardom depends on the favours of the opera-going "mob".
So you like how Domingo brings a refreshing Italianate flow to his Tristan. I, for one, don't think he sounds entirely comfortable in Wagner. Again, these are our individual preferences.
"To my mind the totality of the Wagner Ring cycle is about as profound as the series of Star Wars movies, but the music is somewhat better."
Great compliment! Anyone who researches the Star Wars saga knows that Monsieur Lucas accidentally touches upon many primal and psychological archetypes from world mythologies in his screenplays. So does Wagner's libretto for Der Ring. As for the music, Wagner's is better although it does sag more often than Williams' snappier Star Wars choons.
SS
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#57 Posted: Thu Nov 3rd, 2005 10:46 am |
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solidstateman wrote:
Anyone who researches the Star Wars saga knows that Monsieur Lucas accidentally touches upon many primal and psychological archetypes from world mythologies in his screenplays. So does Wagner's libretto for Der Ring.
I think we're basically in agreement on this one, if your phrase "accidentally touches upon" can be equated with my view that both just scratch the surface, and no more. Despite the reams of twaddle about the philosophical and psychological underpinnings of The Ring presented in multifarious tomes , Fischer-Dieskau got it right when he characterised it as a "family tragedy". Which applies also for those few episodes of the Star Wars saga which held my attention, namely two. (After that my kids didn't bother to try and wake me.)
A few days ago my 5 year-old nephew came across me listening to the Ride of the Valkyries from the Solti set, thought it was wonderful music, and asked me what it was about. I gave him a 2-minute bowlderised version of what had transpired up to that point, whereupon he asked, "Why was Wotan so nasty to Siegmund and Sieglinde - why didn't he help them if he loved them?" "Because his wife did not approve of him loving them", I replied. "Why didn't she approve?" he asked. I decided to sidestep the adultery and incest bits so I said, "He was spending too much time looking after them and this made him late home from work, and this always makes wives angry."
He knew about this because he'd seen something like it in Star Wars. I'll tell you how he develops as a Wagnerian in about 20 years time. (He loved the Magic Fire Music too.)
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SSM
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#58 Posted: Thu Nov 3rd, 2005 03:13 pm |
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Logan wrote: Fischer-Dieskau got it right when he characterised it as a "family tragedy".
That about sums up the gist of both Der Ring and Star Wars. It's basically about how a few feuds within a family could affect the entire spiritual, human, ecological, and inter-galactic realms. Such scenarios are not plausible in the real world, so one is left to wonder about the levels of narcissistic self-absorption that must be going on inside the heads of Wagner and Lucas when they developed their sagas. And also, that too for the legions of Ring and Star Wars fanatics!
Siegmund und Sieglinde? Yeah, always wished I had a twin brother to play with too. If only I could clone myself.
Never inquire what goes on in the mind of a Wagnerian.:raoflmfao:
 
Sieglinde und Siegmund und Leia und Luke: two pairs of complicated twins
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earl of sodbury
HiFi Dealer Wammer
evil foo pusher
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#59 Posted: Thu Nov 3rd, 2005 06:26 pm |
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| Wagner? Fagner more like. :pride:
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SSM
Founding Wammer
"here's looking at you, noob"
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#60 Posted: Thu Nov 3rd, 2005 06:45 pm |
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Wagner is rumored to have been a playmate of his patron, King Ludwig II of Bavaria.
 :raoflmfao::raoflmfao::raoflmfao:
Last edited on Thu Nov 3rd, 2005 06:48 pm by SSM
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