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  1. #1
    Super Dooper Wammer rockmeister's Avatar
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    Another technically ignorant question needing an answer. I IMAGINE that because Record decks, arms, cartridges and speakers contain mechanical components subject to stres, resonance etc, we have good reason for suspecting that all these (unless designed and made to an identical spec) WILL sound different to each other and further, that good engineering can produce 'better' (SIGH OK, closer to mastertape in replay....accurate if you must) sound. Am I therefore correct in assuming that it is NOT just a matter of time before someone starts a 'do all record decks sound the same' thread?



    Please just say yes, so I can sleep at night
    still just watching clouds

  2. #2
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    rockmeister wrote:
    Another technically ignorant question needing an answer. I IMAGINE that because Record decks, arms, cartridges and speakers contain mechanical components subject to stres, resonance etc, we have good reason for suspecting that all these (unless designed and made to an identical spec) WILL sound different to each other and further, that good engineering can produce 'better' (SIGH OK, closer to mastertape in replay....accurate if you must) sound. Am I therefore correct in assuming that it is NOT just a matter of time before someone starts a 'do all record decks sound the same' thread?



    Please just say yes, so I can sleep at night

    There are lots of factors that affect the sound of vinyl replay. The quality and performance of the cartridge, stylus geometry etc have a significant effect. As you suggest, the resonances in the arm , tightness or slackness of bearings etc will also affect the sound, although in my experience these are becoming secondary effects.

    What makes the least difference I've found is the turntable itself. There is some difference, especially when it comes to isolation and microphony, so is dependant on mounting and positioning relative to the loudspeakers, walls etc. However, if you listen on headphones so there's no loudspeaker playing, and don't have kids running about bouncing a suspended floor, I suggest you won't hear any difference between turntables with identical arms and cartridges as long as the turntables go round at the right speed and with minimal rumble and wow&flutter.

    However, in normal use, when the turntable as a system is played in the audio field from the loudspeakers, yes there will be a difference which will still show up in blind tests due to all the above reasons.

    Turntables are about the only thing left worth playing with.......

    Sleep well.

    S.




  3. #3
    Super Wammer JANDL100's Avatar
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    SergeAuckland wrote:
    Turntables are about the only thing left worth playing with.......
    Speakers? .... what about speakers? You aren't gonna try and tell me that all speakers sound the same?
    Life's too short for boring hifi!

  4. #4
    Super Dooper Wammer johnniebaby's Avatar
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    JANDL100 wrote:
    SergeAuckland wrote:
    Turntables are about the only thing left worth playing with.......
    Speakers? .... what about speakers? You aren't gonna try and tell me that all speakers sound the same?
    Probably

    I'm not crazy, my reality is just different to yours.............................

  5. #5
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    johnniebaby wrote:
    JANDL100 wrote:
    SergeAuckland wrote:
    Turntables are about the only thing left worth playing with.......
    Speakers? .... what about speakers? You aren't gonna try and tell me that all speakers sound the same?
    Probably
    No, loudspeakers, like turntables and microphones are electro-mechanical transducers, and still do sound different. What I meant by my final, somewhat jocular, comment about turntables, is that turntables are easy to play with, you can change VTA, you can tweak mats etc. Loudspeakers are rather more difficult, they involve lots of woodwork, and choosing drive units, fiddling about with crossover slopes and frequencies, so they are a lot harder to "play" with.

    Of course you can throw money at it and keep buying and selling loudspeakers, or, if you have a lot of time on your hands you can try building your own, and making changes etc.

    Loudspeakers are a very worthy subject for hi-fi playing about, measurements are rather more difficult as how many of us actually have an anechoic chamber but nevertheless, can be a lot of fun.

    S.

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    utter toss Serge, you have obviously never listened to anything even vaguely revealing.

    On a friends deck you can hear the difference between a nomex and MDF armboard quite clearly, even though the bolts are done up with atorque wrench to matched loads.

  7. #7
    Wammer
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    SQ

    You're harsh.

    Serge comes across to me as a knowledgeable chap.

  8. #8
    Pfft Injector's Avatar
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    My farts in the main show sonic differences.
    I don't like stuff that sucks.

  9. #9
    Wammer
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    Post imported post

    You could add the variable qualities of recorded and broadcast materials. My toys may not be revealing enough to 'show' differences in audiophool cables but have not problems showing off the huge differences in the quality of the engineering and care put into better produced matereials.

    PS what is the point of this tech section really? I don't see any different to the rest of the forum.
    WSITWF(WorstSpeakerInTheWigwamForum)

  10. #10
    Super Dooper Wammer rockmeister's Avatar
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    its here so that the reality of a measurement cant be questioned by anyone with ears that work....

    NO, Joking of course (cough).
    I think the idea was that it's an area where subjective questions and open to demands for objective 'proof', wheras in 2C, subjective apparently rules (although, as I pointed out in a thread there, it doesn't have the same 'protected' status as objectivity does here.
    remember, all wammers are equal, but some wammers are more equal than others.
    still just watching clouds

  11. #11
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    sq225917 wrote:
    utter toss Serge, you have obviously never listened to anything even vaguely revealing.

    On a friends deck you can hear the difference between a nomex and MDF armboard quite clearly, even though the bolts are done up with atorque wrench to matched loads.
    So you did this double-blind did you?

    S.

  12. #12
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    Serge,

    now I understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but what makes you the one with the golden ears Indeed you state in your profile that you are retired - are you ears still fully functioning? I'm not yet 40 but reckon mine roll off fairly dramatically after 15k hrtz.

    When was the last time you did a double blind test on different turntables with the same arm and cart combination?


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  13. #13
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    beeroclock wrote:
    Serge,

    now I understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but what makes you the one with the golden ears Indeed you state in your profile that you are retired - are you ears still fully functioning? I'm not yet 40 but reckon mine roll off fairly dramatically after 15k hrtz.

    When was the last time you did a double blind test on different turntables with the same arm and cart combination?


    philip
    1985-6, when did you?

    S.

  14. #14
    Wammer
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    Ah but Serge

    I'm not making the claims that you are. But since you ask about 2 months ago I was at Avid and listened to the Diva (non suspended), Volvere, Sequel and Acutus and a rather interesting prototype - all with same arms and carts. The diferences easily heard, although admittedly not done in a double blind situation.

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  15. #15
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    beeroclock wrote:
    Ah but Serge

    I'm not making the claims that you are. But since you ask about 2 months ago I was at Avid and listened to the Diva (non suspended), Volvere, Sequel and Acutus and a rather interesting prototype - all with same arms and carts. The diferences easily heard, although admittedly not done in a double blind situation.

    philip
    And that's always the trouble. Unless a test is done blind (preferably double-blind) it's impossible to know how much is real and how much is imagined. In your case, though, it is quite possible that there were differences, especially between the suspended and non-suspended due to microphony differences due to the different means of isolation.

    What I mentioned in an earlier post was that if you listened to different turntables on headphones, so that there were no loudspeakers playing, with the same arm and cartridge, you will find that differences disappear, provided of course that all the turntables being compared go round at the same speed and have sensibly low rumble and wow&flutter.This means that in normal use there could well be audible differences between otherwise similarly-specced turntables due to microphony and isolation.

    S.





  16. #16
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    OH

    so what you're saying is that if you can keep the record absolutley isolated from all vibration, even those caused by the stylus and keep the record spinning at the exact correct speed with absolutley no deviation then the record players will sound the same - genius that.

    philip
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  17. #17
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    beeroclock wrote:
    OH

    so what you're saying is that if you can keep the record absolutley isolated from all vibration, even those caused by the stylus and keep the record spinning at the exact correct speed with absolutley no deviation then the record players will sound the same - genius that.

    philip
    No that's NOT what I'm saying and you know it! What I AM saying is that provided the record goes round at the right speed and with minimal rumble and W&F, the only difference between one turntable and another is the way they handle microphony and isolation. If you remove the sound field, (and don't have any kids running around on suspended floors) then all suchturntables will sound the same with the same arm & cartridge.

    As in practice, most of us have our turntables immersed in the sound filed when listening, the different behaviour to such a sound field will give rise to audible differences.

    Clear enough for you?

    S.

  18. #18
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    What about the energy, vibration created by the cartridge?

    philip
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  19. #19
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    beeroclock wrote:
    What about the energy, vibration created by the cartridge?

    philip
    What about it?

    S.

  20. #20
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    SergeAuckland wrote:
    [

    No that's NOT what I'm saying and you know it! What I AM saying is that provided the record goes round at the right speed and with minimal rumble and W&F, the only difference between one turntable and another is the way they handle microphony and isolation. If you remove the sound field, (and don't have any kids running around on suspended floors) then all suchÂ*turntables will sound the same with the same arm & cartridge.

    Crap.
    All turntables are is how they handle microphony. If you remove that all you have are the physically decoupled but geometrically stable positions for motor bearing and arm. ie an impossible turntable.


    Every physical change you make to a deck alters the sound, whether they are all perceptable is a matter of scale.

    adding a mat changes the sound, adding a clamp likely changes the sound, swapping from glass to acrylic in the platter changes the sound, how you screw down the armboard changes the sound.

    You quote is meaningless, it's like saying cd's would all sound the same if we remove the vagaries of the output stage, the power supply and the digital to analogue conversion.

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