General Discussion: Pre/power versus Integrated

[Tel]

So you take a pre and two monos and put them in one box.

If you did that with say Duvets system you would have a huge box and need a fork lift to move it!

Or would you save space and weight by taking two of the power supplies out?

Now what would you end up with then?

[Duvet]

kingsxfan wrote:

i_should_coco wrote:

I don't think it's possible to generalise about this.

Indeed, good amplification, is good amplification end of story. One, two or three boxes, if I like the sound and the price is right, it doesn't factor with me.

Ok it was a bit of a Devils advocate question to start withbut i think Philhas summed it up perfectly. Good post.

[i_should_coco]

whizzkid wrote:

The Theory that well designed pre/power amps are better than integrateds.




Dean...

So, not a theory, but a stereotype?

Can you tell me *why* this should be so? Or are you just repeating this time-worn cliché?

[whizzkid]

OK Pete,


You win you called my bluff as I don't really know what I'm talking about. But please explain to me why you think that this view represents a stereotype. AFAIK seperating the "noisey" elements transformer and resevior capacitors from the sensitve pre-amp section is supposedly a good thing and having heard many integrated amps and pre/power combos the pre/powers were on the whole producing a better sound ie the best systems I've heard are pre/power setups, Duvets being one, top end Naim, Dartzeel at the Heathrow show, ARC pre/class d power, Croft Pre/ECS power have all sounded better than a Supernait, Karan integrated, MF, Arcam etc etc.... I'm not a engineer type so don't understand the details as much as you may but I listen to people use my ears and common sense to confirm to me that those views can in fact be relied on. All stereotypes are born from fact.





Dean...

[Duvet]

The integrateds that have really floated my boat have hardly been cheap, most being 4k and upwards so there is a case for both approaches . From my own pov i find to my ears pre/powers have that effortless quality which is why i always end upwith alot oomph on tap in mysystems . Not because i want to play at levels that will annoy the street but its thateffortless sound that draws me in. Bridgeable amps can give you the best of both worlds. Maybe i should take one amp out and see if the differences are subtle or not .

[i_should_coco]

whizzkid wrote:

OK Pete,


You win you called my bluff as I don't really know what I'm talking about. But please explain to me why you think that this view represents a stereotype. AFAIK seperating the "noisey" elements transformer and resevior capacitors from the sensitve pre-amp section is supposedly a good thing and having heard many integrated amps and pre/power combos the pre/powers were on the whole producing a better sound ie the best systems I've heard are pre/power setups, Duvets being one, top end Naim, Dartzeel at the Heathrow show, ARC pre/class d power, Croft Pre/ECS power have all sounded better than a Supernait, Karan integrated, MF, Arcam etc etc.... I'm not a engineer type so don't understand the details as much as you may but I listen to people use my ears and common sense to confirm to me that those views can in fact be relied on. All stereotypes are born from fact.





Dean...

Hi Dean, My point is simply that it is not possible to generalise that a pre-power is always better. While separating the parts as you describe can and does make good sense, that in itself does not make a good amp - there are many other factors and that's just one. What about passive preamps? Why not just put the volume pot in the power amp - to me that seems a better way of doing it.

Manufacturers do tend to have pre-power combinations at the top of their ranges, it could just as easily be a cynical exercise to sell another box, or simply they use better circuits in their high end equipment. Having two boxes give more perceived value, but you could possibly put those circuits in one box and have a good amp and save a bundle of money on casework to boot. There are also good reasons to have all of the amplification in one box - e.g. eliminate an extra connection and cables, etc.

The Ongaku's an integrated, I guess an MF pre-power is better by the reasoning that a pre-power combo is better.