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  1. #1
    Super Moderator Duvet's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    David Price gives the Titan i 5 globes in the current edition of Hifi-World but the review has me somewhat confused compared to the lab -report . Noel Keywood measure the tracking as poor by modern standards achieving only 45 um( whatever that is Serge ?) which is half of what budget designs commonly manage . NK says increasing tracking torce to 2gms improved this figure to 60 um . In fact its tracking performance is poor and will occasionly mistrack on occassions with even increasing the tracking force only moderately improving things.

    Is this really good enough on a cart costing £2900 or is tracking not really that important . In all other aspects the Titan scoresvery well .
    First pressings son !

  2. #2
    Price Discovery Bitch i_should_coco's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    The 45 um (micro-metres) refers to the maximum groove modulation (size of the signal) that the cartridge will follow accurately.

    It's a rather poor result. Most cartridges manage 80um+. Personally I'd be concerned about damaging my vinyl - the stylus bouncing around like that is far from ideal.

    Perhaps it was a faulty sample.


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  3. #3
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    i_should_coco wrote:
    The 45 um (micro-metres) refers to the maximum groove modulation (size of the signal) that the cartridge will follow accurately.

    It's a rather poor result. Most cartridges manage 80uM+. Personally I'd be concerned about damaging my vinyl - the stylus bouncing around like that is far from ideal.

    Perhaps it was a faulty sample.

    Yes, I agree. Many even budget cartridges manage 80um, so 45um is pretty poor.

    If I've done my sums right, 5cm/sec (0dB) @ 300Hz is apeak displacementof 11um.

    So, 80um is 7.27x 11um or 17.something dB

    That means that if the cartridge can do >80um it should track the +18dB bands of a test record. It also means that a cartridge giving outa typical 5mV @ 5cm/sec will be giving out 36mV at 80um displacement so your phono stage needs to be able to handle the higher voltage without clipping.

    What I'm unsure of, is how the RIAA equalisation on the LP affects velocity, and displacement. As I understand it, low frequencies are constant amplitude, high frequencies are constant velocity, and magnetic pickups are velocity devices, so how all this fits together to provide a performance "envelope" is beyond my grey cells to work out at the moment.

    S.

  4. #4
    forger pmac's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    For £2900 it shouldn`t have any significantmeasurable,OR non-measurablefaults IMO.

    Surely it is a bad/faulty sample, if not they are not going to sell many.
    Forging away

  5. #5
    Super Wammer Emma Royd's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    pmac wrote:
    For £2900 it shouldn`t have any significantmeasurable,OR non-measurablefaults IMO.

    Surely it is a bad/faulty sample, if not they are not going to sell many.
    I agree,my Argo(not an i)tracked all three bands and the longish largelast track of the hsf75 without distortion,before I had it retipped.
    Its a brand new Kookaburra son.

  6. #6
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    Doesn't this also show the total fatuous nature of some if not most magazine reviews. Here is a cartridge that is patently seriously flawed, if not actually broken, and they still give it a 5 blob rating. Any half-decent reviewer would have returned the cartridge and asked for another sample, mentioning this in the review. If the second one performed in a similar fashion, then the cartridge should have been rated accordingly.

    What does it take to get a poor review, something that's competely dead? Even then, they'd rate it visually......

    S.



  7. #7
    Moderator gjm's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    It's been shown on many occasions that just because something measures badly, doesn't mean it sounds bad. There's no easy way to say why this should be.

    However... For that sort of money I'd be buying a Koetsu anyway.

    <ahem> Sorry. Seriously though - does it sound good? If so, then it is good.
    The best hifi show in the UK today - http://www.thehifishow.com/

  8. #8
    Price Discovery Bitch i_should_coco's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    It's one thing to measure well and still sound good, be he states that the mis-tracking was audible. In light of that, I can only agree with Serge - the 5 star rating is not appropriate.

    Personally, I think it *must* be a faulty sample.
    CD players - computer audio for dummies.

  9. #9
    Moderator gjm's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    i_should_coco wrote:
    It's one thing to measure well and still sound good, be he states that the mis-tracking was audible. In light of that, I can only agree with Serge - the 5 star rating is not appropriate.

    Personally, I think it *must* be a faulty sample.
    Apologies - didn't read the details thoroughly enough.

    Yup - anything at that price producing audible imperfections is not worthy of a 'perfect' score.
    The best hifi show in the UK today - http://www.thehifishow.com/

  10. #10
    Wammer
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    Post imported post

    i_should_coco wrote:
    It's one thing to measure well and still sound good, be he states that the mis-tracking was audible. In light of that, I can only agree with Serge - the 5 star rating is not appropriate.

    Personally, I think it *must* be a faulty sample.
    Or a faulty test.

    HFW have come out with some strange measurements over the past few years.

    I've heard a a couple of Titans and never heard anything remotely approaching distortion or (the infamous) rising top end.

    I trust Lyra to build good product more than I trust HFW to use it properly I'm afraid.
    Teddy Ray's way is the right way. For today anyway.

  11. #11
    forger pmac's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    Tune wrote:
    i_should_coco wrote:
    It's one thing to measure well and still sound good, be he states that the mis-tracking was audible. In light of that, I can only agree with Serge - the 5 star rating is not appropriate.

    Personally, I think it *must* be a faulty sample.
    Or a faulty test.

    HFW have come out with some strange measurements over the past few years.

    I've heard a a couple of Titans and never heard anything remotely approaching distortion or (the infamous) rising top end.

    I trust Lyra to build good product more than I trust HFW to use it properly I'm afraid.
    For Lyra, insert company of your choice, e.g.

    Amstrad

    Hotpoint

    Zannusi...

    etc.

    Forging away

  12. #12
    Super Wammer montesquieu's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    Spot on the money with the Argo i, I've never tried the Titan but went through three Helikons (my original, the rebuilt one that came back from Lyra and finally a brand new one), none of which tracked to my satisfaction on difficult material). The Argo i on the other hand tracks like a champ.

    Have say, at these numbers it has to be broken, no manufacturer woudl release a cartridge designed to run at that spec.

  13. #13
    Super Dooper Wammer rockmeister's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    pmac wrote:
    Tune wrote:
    i_should_coco wrote:
    It's one thing to measure well and still sound good, be he states that the mis-tracking was audible. In light of that, I can only agree with Serge - the 5 star rating is not appropriate.

    Personally, I think it *must* be a faulty sample.
    Or a faulty test.

    HFW have come out with some strange measurements over the past few years.

    I've heard a a couple of Titans and never heard anything remotely approaching distortion or (the infamous) rising top end.

    I trust Lyra to build good product more than I trust HFW to use it properly I'm afraid.
    For Lyra, insert company of your choice, e.g.

    Amstrad

    Hotpoint

    Zannusi...

    etc.
    not sure of your point? Zanussi and Hotpoint make some of the best home electrical kit to a sensible budget and amstrad are a defunct computer company started by a famous grumpy bastard wth the table manners of a neutered skunk. Lyra is connected to these because (short essays acceptable).

    still just watching clouds

  14. #14
    forger pmac's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    rockmeister wrote:
    pmac wrote:
    Tune wrote:
    i_should_coco wrote:
    It's one thing to measure well and still sound good, be he states that the mis-tracking was audible. In light of that, I can only agree with Serge - the 5 star rating is not appropriate.

    Personally, I think it *must* be a faulty sample.
    Or a faulty test.

    HFW have come out with some strange measurements over the past few years.

    I've heard a a couple of Titans and never heard anything remotely approaching distortion or (the infamous) rising top end.

    I trust Lyra to build good product more than I trust HFW to use it properly I'm afraid.
    For Lyra, insert company of your choice, e.g.

    Amstrad

    Hotpoint

    Zannusi...

    etc.
    not sure of your point? Zanussi and Hotpoint make some of the best home electrical kit to a sensible budget and amstrad are a defunct computer company started by a famous grumpy bastard wth the table manners of a neutered skunk. Lyra is connected to these because (short essays acceptable).
    Replace LYRA with any of the others in the highlighted sentence

    (It was a dig at HFW, not Lyra)
    Forging away

  15. #15
    Admin hifiwigwam's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    pmac wrote:
    For £2900 it shouldn`t have any significantmeasurable,OR non-measurablefaults IMO.

    Surely it is a bad/faulty sample, if not they are not going to sell many.
    Yes, agreed. £2900.00 really should be enough to make a cart that has no real faults or weaknesses as such..

  16. #16
    Super Wammer
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    Post imported post

    £2900 would buy a very nice IWC watch. If you have deep pockets 1k would get you a top drawer needle.Lyras are good but can sound a bit polite if that the correct term.

  17. #17
    Super Moderator Duvet's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    HiFiWigWam wrote:
    pmac wrote:
    For £2900 it shouldn`t have any significantmeasurable,OR non-measurablefaults IMO.

    Surely it is a bad/faulty sample, if not they are not going to sell many.
    Yes, agreed. £2900.00 really should be enough to make a cart that has no real faults or weaknesses as such..
    At the end of the day i think this is the most prevalent point^. I 'm still suprised like most that Hifi-World didn't ask for another sample just to check something wasn't amiss. May DP or Beobloke could clear this up.
    First pressings son !

  18. #18
    Wammer ultrawomble's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    A cynic would say that the price tag alone means that it's going to get a 5 globe rating.

  19. #19
    Everything is awesome.... freefallrob's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    Yep I read this and thought, hmmmm, not good enough................

    I won't be renewing my subscription next year as I can't possibly afford anything reviewed in Hifi World any more...........which is a shame!

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