Revenue-generating... er... "safety" camera van implicated in death of biker.

[Pac67]

So the biker was exceeding the speed limit, slammed on his brakes on seeing the speed camera van and crashed. The two results being that he slowed down to the speed he should have been travelling at (plus a bit more, obviously...) and there's now one less motorcyclist on the road.

Win-win situation I'd say...

You have got to be joking right? Some guy loses his life and because of that and the fact he was a biker, you call that a "win-win" situation? That's just plain sick my friend. I'd have some sympathy with that if it had been a toerag boy racer in a souped up Corsa, the type who genuinely drive dangerously irrespective of built up areas or not, but a biker in his 60's? FFS. Most bikers I know do use their bike's power but most avoid speeding in built up areas and are generally a fantastic bunch of blokes (and lassies). Its tragic. He may have overbraked, it's all speculation until the inquest reveals exactly what happened, but that doesn't mean he's a criminal, just that he lost control of his machine. Had the camera van not been there, there's no doubt be nothing to report and perhaps he was speeding and perhaps not. When was the last time you broke the speed limit and what give's suggesting its a win win situation? Yes, I am a biker by the way and get pissed off by comments like yours.

[i_should_coco]

So the biker was exceeding the speed limit, slammed on his brakes on seeing the speed camera van and crashed. The two results being that he slowed down to the speed he should have been travelling at (plus a bit more, obviously...) and there's now one less motorcyclist on the road.

Win-win situation I'd say...

What a stupid cunt you are.

[ronc]

I've not always seen eye to eye with i_should_coco but I have to say that, on this one, he has hit the nail on the flat bit.

[gthang]

surprised he's still green tbh.

one of the most disgusting posts I've read.

[Lokes]

Anyone who's owned a bike knows that some oil on the road can make you lose the front wheel under braking,
as for the rest of it, I think sodders summed up my feelings

[rockmeister]

most instructive to read on down that page and see the thoughts of other policeofficers, many, traffic cops.
The hill which 'obscured his view' is (as you can see in the pic) very slight. he should have had clear line of sight for hundreds of yards.
The camera was being set up at the time, not in operation (were there yellow hi viz jackets around?).
Witnesses suggest he approached at high speed.
Bottom line is that his riding technique was poor, his observation rubbish. That camera might just as well have been a parked truck, a cow loose on the road, an oil spill or a group of cyclists the result would have been the same. Poor observation means very late panicked reaction due to high speed = loss of control.
Hugely sad he died and I've been in too many ditches for the same kind of reasons when young to lecture, but to blame the camera is to miss half the story. The debate about cameras contributions to road safety is separate from this accident I think, apart from the obvious, that if it hadn't been there, maybe he'd be alive.

[Robianco]

I like the 'Wam... and 'Wammers in general... funny bunch of fuckers who know their shit and contribute to a fantastic forum every day, but the comment about 'win-win', no matter what the reason for the accident, is a cunt's trick.

[legzr1]

Funny, then, that that stretch of road was 70mph all the way when it was built 30 years ago - a time when braking and overall safety dynamics of vehicles was greatly inferior to modern vehicles, yet was dropped to 50mph, then 40mph as soon as "safety" cameras proliferated. It has never been an accident-prone road, much less any kind of accident "black spot".

I grew-up in the area, and know the road well. It is wide, largely straight, has no complex junctions and is only congested at peak times. It is evident to any intelligent person that the frequent static and mobile "safety" cameras it enjoys are placed to exploit flashes of impatience amongst those for whom driving at single-carriageway built-up-area speeds on an open dual carriageway might seem ridiculous and unnecessary.

And before condemning the unfortunate deceased, perhaps consider that an unknown third party may have been involved. My own experience with "safety" cameras is that many drivers notice them too late, and when they do, hopelessly overbrake - on roads near me they typically drop to 30mph on 60mph roads. The driver of a modern braking-assisted car can stop a LOT quicker than a motorbike, who therefore may have been the unwitting victim of someone else's carelessness.

What is clear, is that a so-called "safety" camera has contributed in some way to a needless death. Not acceptable in my book.

Oh, and the tendency of some drivers to overbrake when confronted with a camera betokens the REAL road safety issue at large: driver incompetence - when these people overbrake it is because they do not know what the speed limit actually is, and are not aware of their own speed in relation to it. It is incompetence that kills, not outright speed. "Safety" cameras do absolutely nothing to ameliorate that.

Excellent post.

I feel ashamed

An so you should...

[Beobloke]

Yes, OK, point taken everyone. When you live within 100 yards of the A32 you learn to hate motorcyclists with a passion, but I certainly would not wish any of them dead.

Consequently I apologise unreservedly for my thoughtless comment which was made in the middle of a bad day (not that this is any excuse).

I'd have some sympathy with that if it had been a toerag boy racer in a souped up Corsa, the type who genuinely drive dangerously irrespective of built up areas or not, but a biker in his 60's?

Er... given the understandable comments fired in my direction, I have to tentatively enquire why said boy racer would be more deserving of death than a motorcyclist?

[rabski]

Best, IME, to leave accident investigation to accident investigators. Quite possibly he was riding closer to his limits than he should have been. Equally possibly, and something nobody seems to have considered, is that some other twat braked heavily for the camera van and swerved into his path.

So very easy to take the high moral ground, but so often wrong. I don't know anyone, and I mean anyone, who doesn't break the speed limit at some time or other. I have seen many piss-awful drivers who never so much as scratch a car and I know one or two excellent drivers who have been involved in some other fool's accident. I was taught originally that there is no such thing as an 'accident' and that no matter what, you should never be so close to the limits that you get involved in someone else's screw-up. Especially true on two wheels. Trouble is, that rule was fine in the 70s, but simply doesn't work with the volume of traffic around today. If you drive in such a way as to avoid every possible situation, you'll end up going in reverse at 1.5mph.

To return to the main point, this is for sure not the first time that a 'safety camera' has potentially been the cause of an accident and it certainly won't be the last. Get rid of the stupid things and put trained, sensible, aware police drivers back in cars. That way, there might be some chance of removing some of the dangerous idiots we all see every day of the week.

Fat hope...

[dicy]

C'mon all

I think anyone who knows Adam, would agree that he is a very decent bloke. He has apologised for a tasteless and cuntish remark.

How many of us can honestly say that we have never said anything indefensible in the middle of a bad day, i know i have.

[DavyC]

Sadly Adams blinkered attitude of hating bikers is typical of many people in the UK. There's a general dislike of anyone on a bike which I've just not found when touring in Europe where they actually like bikers. I've never ridden anywhere with drivers as selfish, intolerant and incompetent as in the UK. Ok, some of the fair weather pilots do us no good by pulling their bikes out of the garage in April and riding everywhere flat out like twats but that's no reason to tar us all as lunatics.

I'll forgive Adam his tasteless remarks but it's worth remembering that under every helmet is a normal person enjoying life and that they're someone's father, grandfather, son, daughter etc. Most people probably know someone who owns a bike. Would you hate them or wish them dead simply because of their choice of transport?

[Jezzer]

Sadly Adams blinkered attitude of hating bikers is typical of many people in the UK. There's a general dislike of anyone on a bike which I've just not found when touring in Europe where they actually like bikers. I've never ridden anywhere with drivers as selfish, intolerant and incompetent as in the UK. Ok, some of the fair weather pilots do us no good by pulling their bikes out of the garage in April and riding everywhere flat out like twats but that's no reason to tar us all as lunatics.

I'll forgive Adam his tasteless remarks but it's worth remembering that under every helmet is a normal person enjoying life and that they're someone's father, grandfather, son, daughter etc. Most people probably know someone who owns a bike. Would you hate them or wish them dead simply because of their choice of transport?

Sounds like a pot calling a kettle black to me. Sounds like it is you who has a general dislike of anyone whose mode of transport requires four wheels instead of two.

Can't say I dislike any bikers as many of my friends (who are all fine upstanding citizens) have motorbikes. Some of my friends even have both cars and motorbikes (incredibly high performance ones I might add).

[DavyC]

Sounds like a pot calling a kettle black to me. Sounds like it is you who has a general dislike of anyone whose mode of transport requires four wheels instead of two.

Can't say I dislike any bikers as many of my friends (who are all fine upstanding citizens) have motorbikes. Some of my friends even have both cars and motorbikes (incredibly high performance ones I might add).

No pot/kettle scenario here. I drive a car as well most days but that doesn't stop me seeing and pointing out the intolerant and useless driving standards here. Or from noticing the stupid and ignorant opinions many people hold towards bikers. Every time someone mentions a bike accident in my work I have to listen to the drivel they spout about it as well as listening to their usual assumption that the biker must have been in the wrong and riding like a maniac even though they weren't even present at the accident.

[i_should_coco]

Ironic that most bikers are actually far more aware of what's going on around them than the dozy cunts in cars. When if feels like everyone's trying to kill you, it tends to focus your attention.

Oh, and I'll make sure I have the baffles out on the R1 for my regular runs down the A32 this summer.

[rockmeister]

Davy, if you, as a biker, have NOT noticed that there is a hefty band of 'enthusiastic' riders belting around britain's roads, you need glasses!
One of them was me until recently. Until the 80's when people (some people) became sensible, the whole bike thing was exactly because we wanted to outrun tossers in cars, leave the coppers in our wake, frighten grannies, make antisocial noises, and wear leather (or was that just solid and me???). Bikers who claim to be sensible have to be my age, accountants or liars.
In the case of the OP the guy may it seems, have misjudged when and where to have his bit of lunacy (or any other stuff might have been happening....evidence is required). I think that the judgement thing tends to mature with age I still do over a ton and take bends knee down and sparks flying, but only when I know the road is clear and dry...measured lunacy.

[DavyC]

Davy, if you, as a biker, have NOT noticed that there is a hefty band of 'enthusiastic' riders belting around britain's roads, you need glasses!
One of them was me until recently. Until the 80's when people (some people) became sensible, the whole bike thing was exactly because we wanted to outrun tossers in cars, leave the coppers in our wake, frighten grannies, make antisocial noises, and wear leather (or was that just solid and me???). Bikers who claim to be sensible have to be my age, accountants or liars.
In the case of the OP the guy may it seems, have misjudged when and where to have his bit of lunacy (or any other stuff might have been happening....evidence is required). I think that the judgement thing tends to mature with age I still do over a ton and take bends knee down and sparks flying, but only when I know the road is clear and dry...measured lunacy.

I've never claimed to be sensible or that I don't speed (quite the reverse) but, as you just pointed out, there's a difference between riding fast and riding like a certifiable lunatic. I've seen some right arses on bikes who obviously have no wish to remain here for very long. I've seen them overtaking on blind bends, almost lose it on other bends cos they can't sodding ride their bikes and then pin it flat out on straights. Hopeless idiots the lot of them. Does that mean that people should be happy they're dead though? Or that we should all be considered just like them? For all that, I've still seen far worse driving of cars every single day. As Coco said, they're out to get us.

And good luck to you if you're putting your knee anywhere near our pothole ridden roads. I keep mines well up out of the way and still have no chicken strips. It's only for posers

[AmDismal]

It is odd how impassioned people get about bikes, cars and the like. There is road rage, forum rage, the lot. I just don't get it - to me it's just a way of getting around, one that allows me to keep the gut I have been cultivating this last four decades.

I think it's because the only way you can have fun in most modern vehicles (that have any fun element in them, i.e. are not just conveyance products) is by driving incredibly fast. All the latest hot hatches, sports cars, bikes and so on are blisteringly fast, so you have to be a complete nutter to get much fun out of them. In the olden days, you'd have a nice soft-top, or be on a bike with no helmet (or at least, one that didn't completely cover your head and face), and you'd be pootling along thoroughly enjoying it, wind in your hair (if you have any). Now you're in an air-conditioned personal zone, cut off from the world, or you've been poured into your leathers and on a beast that does 0-100 in a couple of seconds, and you're mainlining adrenaline to try to have fun.

With the levels of traffic nowadays, you are stop and start all the time, and you have these bloody speed cameras everywhere - you can't actually use your expensive toy to have any fun, and people get so worked up about it. Honestly, what is the point? People don't seem to realise that if you do actually want to have edgy fun on a modern car/bike, the only way really is to get yourself to a track day, where it is safe, for you and others. Alternatively, get yourself a more appropriate vehicle (an MX-5, say, or a classic car/bike of some kind) and have fun just being in it while staying within the law (mostly) and sensible safety limits.

Roads are not there for your enjoyment, they are there for everyone to use safely and reasonably. Safety cameras are there to try to enforce this - I have a number of objections to them, similar to others posted on this thread and elsewhere, but they are an effective tool, as (generally) they will add the points onto those who speed the most. I don't doubt that this safety camera contributed to this poor guy's death, but I suspect that it was a relatively small contribution, and that the major factor was that someone, either him or another, was driving really badly.

[Beobloke]

Oh, and I'll make sure I have the baffles out on the R1 for my regular runs down the A32 this summer.

Fair enough - I hope you have fun. Just please remember:

(1) The speed limit through the villages is 30mph, not 50mph.
(2) The speed limit outside the villages is 60mph, not 90mph.
(3) It is dangerous to overtake on a bend
(4) It is dangerous to sit a foot or so from the rear bumper of a car, right in their blind spot, whilst waiting for an opportunity to overtake.

I'm sure that you are one of the sensible bikers who will know and abide by these observations, but if more of the bikers on the A32 knew it too, maybe I'd be more tolerant of them.

[Jezzer]

I've been on the back of an R1 and lived to tell the tale. It's an incredible piece of machinery!

I have to say, many bikers and drivers are equally culpable of being cunts on the road. I see so much crap ALL THE TIME!

... and why? It brings us back to the point Rabski and a few other sane individuals were making earlier in this thread: There aren't enough cops ON THE ROAD!