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  1. #681
    Downgraded. Happy? Craig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by f1eng View Post
    ......if they were doing it it is blatant cheating.
    Great post

    I'd love to know the if's & why's of the timing in this case.

    At face value this is no different to Honda's dodgy fuel tank: plain ol cheating. Frank's comments echo, I'd imagine, those in many other teams, but this has yet to blow up into a huge story - why??????

    How long was it on the car (I'll eat my hat if it hasn't been since 2010) ? When did the FIA know? Why did they specifically go looking in Canada 2012? Why have we only heard about it now?

    This one has legs!

  2. #682
    Founding Wammer s2000db's Avatar
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    Yes be interesting to see the outcome as no one has appeared to be penalised for any so called infringements (unless you're Mclaren of course).

    I hope they show some teeth on this one as this could have been a factor in their recent successes over the past cpl of seasons..

  3. #683
    Brewing Bodhisattva Ozexpat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tones View Post
    Coming from a profession that interacts with the law, that sounds slightly odd to me. The literal interpretation of the words on the page is a very British law thing, and I'd imagine that every constructor would look at it the same way, simply because it offers advantages. Looking for the intent, going back to the travaux préparatoires to see what was actually intended, is very much Continental law. I suspect that Adrian Newey is quite simply better at it than anyone else, a latter-day Colin Chapman.

    Having said that, and looked at that Autosport article, Horner comes out as a total humbug. When the regulation says, "... it must be clear from physical inspection that changes cannot be made without the use of tools", it most certainly does not mean "the FIA said they preferred it was a tool that was used".
    I was refering to the way engineers interpret the "spirit" of the rules that may, or may not, be clearly defined by the wording of the regs.

    Quote Originally Posted by f1eng View Post
    If they really did have easily manually adjustable front ride height this was not only a huge benefit (1mm is between 0.1 and 0.2 secs per lap) and completely cheating, since everybody in the business knows how big a benefit it is and why it was banned and the rule written the way it is.
    it is not playing around with words, if they were doing it it is blatant cheating.

    OTOH the engine map thing is somewhat devious (OK by me) and legal until the rule wording is changed/clarified.

    A VERY big difference between these two.
    Agreed. I was refering to the general engineering interpretation of the rules (such as the engine mapping) and pushing them as far as possible without stepping over the mark. Newey has been superb at this.

    As for the "ride height adjuster" ? Well that, if conclusively proved (and I have my doubts that it will), is blatant cheating.

    I say I have doubts, due to the suspicion of varying ride heights has gone on for a couple of years, been investigated, nothing proved and so has gone on. Suddenly a "device" has been found in Canada that hasn't been found in previous scrutineering. Having a dominant car (as 2011) would have the scrutineers crawling all over the car to find something. If the FIA has done it's job properly, then why hasn't this been discovered sooner ?
    Let's face it most of the tweaks to regs over the last couple of years have been specifically aimed at Red Bull. First the "flexi-wing" weight test was increased (twice), diffuser-exhaust blowing (hot and cold), greater definition on engine mapping etc.

    I find it interesting that, just as Red Bull's form improves, something so serious has "allegedly" been found that could suddenly blow the sport apart. What were the FIA scrutineers and Charlie Whiting doing all this time ? Just ignoring it and hoping it would go away ? I don't think so.

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  4. #684
    Founding Wammer s2000db's Avatar
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    Well we are blessed with some experts here... So how rigorously and often are F1 cars actually scrutinised??

  5. #685
    Brewing Bodhisattva Ozexpat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s2000db View Post
    So how rigorously and often are F1 cars actually scrutinised??
    My understanding is, all cars are thoroughly checked on the Thursday prior to FP1 (Weds at Monaco). Then weights are checked at random during Q1 & Q2. Then ALL are checked that take part in Q3. Then further checks are carried out on all cars after the race. Although more stringent tests may take place on the top 3 finishers.

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  6. #686
    Super Dooper Wammer f1eng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozexpat View Post
    I was refering to the way engineers interpret the "spirit" of the rules that may, or may not, be clearly defined by the wording of the regs.



    Agreed. I was refering to the general engineering interpretation of the rules (such as the engine mapping) and pushing them as far as possible without stepping over the mark. Newey has been superb at this.

    As for the "ride height adjuster" ? Well that, if conclusively proved (and I have my doubts that it will), is blatant cheating.

    I say I have doubts, due to the suspicion of varying ride heights has gone on for a couple of years, been investigated, nothing proved and so has gone on. Suddenly a "device" has been found in Canada that hasn't been found in previous scrutineering. Having a dominant car (as 2011) would have the scrutineers crawling all over the car to find something. If the FIA has done it's job properly, then why hasn't this been discovered sooner ?
    Let's face it most of the tweaks to regs over the last couple of years have been specifically aimed at Red Bull. First the "flexi-wing" weight test was increased (twice), diffuser-exhaust blowing (hot and cold), greater definition on engine mapping etc.

    I find it interesting that, just as Red Bull's form improves, something so serious has "allegedly" been found that could suddenly blow the sport apart. What were the FIA scrutineers and Charlie Whiting doing all this time ? Just ignoring it and hoping it would go away ? I don't think so.
    I think they look for things when they suspect something going on. There are a multitude of problems here.
    Firstly the teams have much more time, money and people than the FIA.
    Secondly the teams know what are the sensitive areas, the FIA, journalists, hence fans, do not, or only find out years later. For example I discovered Aero was a dominant parameter in 1975, but since the press didn't cotton on for decades many fans think it is a fairly recent development.
    Thirdly if it turns out that one team has been dominant because of cheating for years, and what they have been doing has only been discovered recently, what do you do? If you make a big public fuss about it it brings the sport into disrepute (an FIA punishable offence) and maybe makes a mockery of the last several World Championships. What you do is tell them not to do it again and keep quiet. This has happened more than once in the last 35 years.
    I think the ethos varies between teams. Some teams would never dream of cheating and others believe it is part of the sport and only stop and look for something else when they get rumbled.
    There are the general grey areas and even here I know some designers who will exploit to the maximum, knowing the parameter in question is very difficult or impossible to check. General dimensions and stiffness, for example.

    There are designers who I respect greatly and others who have been successful for whom I have no respect at all. And a few in between :-)

  7. #687
    Wammer Samantha's Avatar
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    Aborted start - not often you see that!
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  8. #688
    Super Dooper Wammer f1eng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozexpat View Post
    My understanding is, all cars are thoroughly checked on the Thursday prior to FP1 (Weds at Monaco). Then weights are checked at random during Q1 & Q2. Then ALL are checked that take part in Q3. Then further checks are carried out on all cars after the race. Although more stringent tests may take place on the top 3 finishers.
    There are basic and safety checks carried out by the local scrutineers the day before first practice. The electronics and software are checked. The big legality check is really done before the season starts, since lots of things are difficult to check on an assembled car.

    Jo Bauer from the FIA circulates continuously, checking out new parts and procedures, it is frequently the case that it is impossible for him to have seen something before the car first runs.

    The problem is that the FIA are not really aware of the most sensitive areas. They are not obvious, either, even to dyed in the wool fans, since many are unintuitive and the teams keep them to themselves.

    Weight is crucial, and there was one team in particular who had imaginative ways to cheat this, once the FIA twigged the random weight checks were introduced.

    Front ride height is critical for a number of reasons and various ways have been exploited to run the car lower that the flat bottom/plank wear strictly allows. There has been a continuous evolution of ways of limiting what people are allowed to do over the years.

    The flex front wing saga was blown out of all proportion, for some reason IMO. It was pretty obvious from wind tunnel tests in 2007 when first looking at the new rules for 2009 that the height of the front wing end plate was going to be a very powerful parameter (and much more so than the 2008 rule). Toyota tested a range of differently flexible front wings, starting at a Bahrain test of the 2009 car in December 2008. The press never got wind of this, mid you, they did not even seem to have realised the 2009 car was there. I am sure plenty of teams experimented with this, but certainly Red Bull were targeted by the press years after the first test of such a thing (and they were certainly exploiting it to the full).

    The teams most used to extreme interpretations of the rules are the ones most astute at deflecting criticism IME.
    Last edited by f1eng; 29-07-2012 at 12:15 PM.

  9. #689
    Brewing Bodhisattva Ozexpat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by f1eng View Post
    I think they look for things when they suspect something going on. There are a multitude of problems here.
    Firstly the teams have much more time, money and people than the FIA.
    Secondly the teams know what are the sensitive areas, the FIA, journalists, hence fans, do not, or only find out years later. For example I discovered Aero was a dominant parameter in 1975, but since the press didn't cotton on for decades many fans think it is a fairly recent development.
    Thirdly if it turns out that one team has been dominant because of cheating for years, and what they have been doing has only been discovered recently, what do you do? If you make a big public fuss about it it brings the sport into disrepute (an FIA punishable offence) and maybe makes a mockery of the last several World Championships. What you do is tell them not to do it again and keep quiet. This has happened more than once in the last 35 years.
    I think the ethos varies between teams. Some teams would never dream of cheating and others believe it is part of the sport and only stop and look for something else when they get rumbled.
    There are the general grey areas and even here I know some designers who will exploit to the maximum, knowing the parameter in question is very difficult or impossible to check. General dimensions and stiffness, for example.

    There are designers who I respect greatly and others who have been successful for whom I have no respect at all. And a few in between :-)
    The outcome is also dependant on your relationship with the FIA.

    Not that I'm suggesting anything untoward like bias or, heaven forbid, favourtism

    But I agree, I can't see a lot being made of this. It is too open to deniability, something that puts the onus of proof back to the FIA. Like the Program code 13 (if I recall) that Benetton used after TC was banned. The difficulty comes in proving usage, "yeah, it was there but I didn't use it. Honest guv !"

    That exact sort of spin has already started with Horner stating that, "The device can be used by hand but we were advised by the FIA that it must be operated by a tool. Yes, the device was there but we have never, ever used it in Parc Ferme".

    Now that it's out in the open, I see it quietly disappearing. To make a big deal of it will only make the FIA scrutineers look incompetent. Charlie won't like that. Never mind the smear on the credibility of F1.

    A storm in a teacup, me thinks.

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  10. #690
    Wammer barry2tone's Avatar
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    Comment moved to Fantasy thread.
    Last edited by barry2tone; 29-07-2012 at 01:30 PM.

  11. #691
    Wammer Samantha's Avatar
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    What a cracking race! A cracking season!!
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  12. #692
    Downgraded. Happy? Craig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samantha View Post
    What a cracking race! A cracking season!!
    Indeed it is! A few weeks off before the big one. Hoping for a Kimi win in mixed conditions

  13. #693
    Downgraded. Happy? Craig's Avatar
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    Another cracking vid from Sauber

    http://www.sauberf1team.com/en/home.cfm## (clickon the 360 vidoe in the bottom left box)

  14. #694
    Brewing Bodhisattva Ozexpat's Avatar
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    DIGEST 11

    I shall keep it brief this week as I am planning a Half-Term Report.
    But highlights this week;

    *Accolades to Lewis this week. A fantastic lights to flag drive. No histrionics, no mistakes. Well done.
    *Alonso's race was steady. Which is about the best that can be said. Mind you, 5th for a "steady" race, is not a bad return. Is it ?
    *Strong drive finally from Senna. Hopefully this will give him the confidence to push every week.
    *Maldonado was back to his usual eratic self. Apparently Williams have been working with him to calm him down. Fail !
    *Both Webber and Button looked uncomfortable. Neither showed any real fight. Good solid points finishes though.
    *The Hulk drove really well and is showing signs of upstaging his well regarded teammate. Was Di Resta distracted by an approach from Ferrari ?
    *Highlight for me (again) was the Pit to Car conversation between Vettel and his engineer.....SV: "We need to do something to get past"......Rocky:"We are working on it"......SV: "Don't just talk about it ! Do something !".......fucking priceless. That's two races in a row where we have seen Finger Boy unravelling.
    *The Lotus twins finally doing justice to the machinery. I think the team would rather they avoid close calls like Kimi's pit exit. But it's great to see Kimi showing some real gonads. And for once, a faultless drive from Grosjean. More please.
    *Well, well, well. Mickey Shoes drives like a newby shocker !! No, I don't mean the stalling on the grid (a software glitch) but his reaction to it. Firstly, let's squeal like a girl "It stalled, it stalled, we need to get this started." Followed by a tantrumous exit from his very early first pit stop, gains him a drive through. I thought this was the level headed, teutonic master and the most experienced racer on the grid Not a good showing for a 7 time World Champion.

    So into the summer recess and a gap of 4 weeks where there is nothing to do but everything that is put off while a race is on.
    Now to look back and summarise my F1 year.
    Last edited by Ozexpat; 02-08-2012 at 11:38 AM.

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  15. #695
    Downgraded. Happy? Craig's Avatar
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    Nice to be back at the Church of F1 this weekend

    Nice that some things never change:

    Spa weather
    Lewis spitting dummy
    My weekend bet (this time it's Kimi at 8/1) going boobs up
    Last edited by Craig; 02-09-2012 at 11:43 AM.

  16. #696
    Hard working Slacker harv's Avatar
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    Alonso is a lucky boy could have been really nasty...
    There should be something amusing or clever here...

  17. #697
    Wammer syep2001's Avatar
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    Grosjean needs a reprimand for that action especially on what is probably the most dangerous 1st corner in F1.
    I spent all my money on booze, drugs, and women, the rest I squandered

  18. #698
    Downgraded. Happy? Craig's Avatar
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    Really thick from Grosjean. he may have been a smidge ahead but he was way too aggresive


  19. #699
    Hard working Slacker harv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by syep2001 View Post
    Grosjean needs a reprimand for that action especially on what is probably the most dangerous 1st corner in F1.
    Just seen that Grojean has been banned for 1 race...

    Considering that Maldonado has driven into people deliberately twice... seems a bit harsh but the move was utterly stupid...
    There should be something amusing or clever here...

  20. #700
    Pac67
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    Quote Originally Posted by harv View Post
    Just seen that Grojean has been banned for 1 race...

    Considering that Maldonado has driven into people deliberately twice... seems a bit harsh but the move was utterly stupid...
    He's a very lucky boy to have got away with a one race ban. Others may have had close racing incidents bordering on the deliberate (Maldenardo especially) but this one was stupidity personified, and put several driver's lives at risk. Alonso came bloody close to being decapitated by an over aggressive and totally uncalled for move. Grojean had his brains in his arse...very surprised at his stupidity.

    Fab race for Jenson though, and a well deserved win. Hope his form continues. He may not be the most consistent racer on the track, but I'd still like to see him win another championship.

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