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  1. #41
    Wammer belloire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rich View Post
    Are you certain on the details Belloire ? The point of the new NDS is that it has its own intergral reference Burr brown dac, similar to the one employed in the CD555. Plugging the NDS into the mid-level naim nDAC (if it actually has a digital out) would in all likelihood reduce the sound quality quite drastically. Maybe it was the NDX + nDAC you were hearing ?
    just spoken to the shop, it turns out it was an nds without the dac, the cd5i was plugged into the dac. my bad.

    was still very good though. 6000 good, i'm not sure, but very good

  2. #42
    In the trade Wammer Purite Audio's Avatar
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    Lindsay Hi, it does depend on the design and implementation of the dac, a competent dac will have some form of clock locking, whether it be ASRC or PLL or a combination , async data transfer, NOS dacs for example will be pumping HF rubbish into the system which may be audible, or they may not 'lock' onto the embedded clock frequency.
    Here we have compared optical to 'computer' transport many times albeit with properly designed dacs.
    Keith.

    I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveS1 View Post
    Lol. Go look at your post 30 again, it really was a silly thing to say and no amount of getting childishly personal alters that. I made no reference to your choice of kit and the fact that you have tried different options doesn't alter anything either. Other than that, well played.
    Perfectly happy with 30 thanks, based on countless highend sources through this living room in the last year and trying your Weiss and other dacs with different feeds (cdp, dvd, hd, mac, unitiserve, hdx, ads spdif etc..) but the same file (yes they all sounded different). Let's just say that i'm a lot better listener than you are a scientist/electronics engineer.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purite Audio View Post
    The data is the same, ( as long as you are ripping to an uncompressed codec) if you use an optical transport or a computer through the same dac the results will be identical.
    There could be a difference if the dac is not properly designed and implemented.
    Keith.
    i guess the nDAC, ADS, Tron, DCS scarlatti, Weiss202, Zanden aren't properly designed and implemented then.

  5. #45
    In the trade Wammer Purite Audio's Avatar
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    Tron and Zanden are both NOS, Ndac isn't really designed for computer audio in itself, although of course you can use a USB/s/pdif converter with it.
    The Scarlatti I haven't heard here for years so really can't comment ,the Weiss I am familiar with and that sounds identical through all it's inputs whether fed by optical transport or a PC/Mac.
    Keith.

    I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best.

  6. #46
    Super Wammer SteveS1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rich View Post
    Perfectly happy with 30 thanks, based on countless highend sources through this living room in the last year and trying your Weiss and other dacs with different feeds (cdp, dvd, hd, mac, unitiserve, hdx, ads spdif etc..) but the same file (yes they all sounded different). Let's just say that i'm a lot better listener than you are a scientist/electronics engineer.
    Of course you are, the old 'golden ears' proposition. You're not the first, you won't be the last. I'll bet you that without your golden eyes, your golden ears will go awol. Care to test it?

    You still haven't adequately explained why spinning the same music files on a bit of plastic improves the sound of them. Just to boringly drag you back to your original baseless contention.
    Last edited by SteveS1; 22-05-2012 at 10:57 PM.

  7. #47
    Super Wammer The Strat's Avatar
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    Steve - There is no doubt that what we observe will influence what we hear - the same applies to taste of course - but even under blind testing conditions our hearing is influenced by a multitude of other factors including temperature, comfort, mood, expectation etc. That's why I will always maintain that the only way a piece of hi-fi equipment can be properly evaluated is over an extended period in the home environment and even then it is almost a wholly subjective judgement. But then the music i enjoy is wholly subjective. As for measurements and blind tsting (the latter is fine I guess if you're an ant-foo zealot - I'm not!!) I don't listen to music by reviewing a series of data tables or when I'm blind-folded. Regards, Lindsay
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  8. #48
    Wam Fooodly doo di da vacdac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveS1 View Post
    Of course you are, the old 'golden ears' proposition. You're not the first, you won't be the last. I'll bet you that without your golden eyes, your golden ears will go awol. Care to test it?

    You still haven't adequately explained why spinning the same music files on a bit of plastic improves the sound of them. Just to boringly drag you back to your original baseless contention.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Strat View Post
    Steve - There is no doubt that what we observe will influence what we hear - the same applies to taste of course - but even under blind testing conditions our hearing is influenced by a multitude of other factors including temperature, comfort, mood, expectation etc. That's why I will always maintain that the only way a piece of hi-fi equipment can be properly evaluated is over an extended period in the home environment and even then it is almost a wholly subjective judgement. But then the music i enjoy is wholly subjective. As for measurements and blind tsting (the latter is fine I guess if you're an ant-foo zealot - I'm not!!) I don't listen to music by reviewing a series of data tables or when I'm blind-folded. Regards, Lindsay
    Quote Originally Posted by rich View Post
    Perfectly happy with 30 thanks, based on countless highend sources through this living room in the last year and trying your Weiss and other dacs with different feeds (cdp, dvd, hd, mac, unitiserve, hdx, ads spdif etc..) but the same file (yes they all sounded different). Let's just say that i'm a lot better listener than you are a scientist/electronics engineer.
    needlessly rude, & typically know it all self proclaimed golden ears.....yet another one!!

    Quote Originally Posted by rich View Post
    I had the Weiss 202 at home for a week or so. I can assure you that I didn't imagine anything. My advice is to give up the science theory crud and trust your ears instead ... oh, and try some music that elicits emotions rather than 'audiophile checklisting'.
    Ditto

    And as it seems relevant from another thread recently

    vacdac
    As for going to the "Golden Ears" default/fallback position..........Often the people that do this seem to think of it as somehow being the ultimate defense Whereas I tend to see it as a SPINELESS position & generally used by those lacking any cogent/verifiable/valid argument
    Chris oooooooooooot
    Last edited by vacdac; 23-05-2012 at 03:30 PM.
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  9. #49
    Super Wammer SteveS1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Strat View Post
    Steve - There is no doubt that what we observe will influence what we hear - the same applies to taste of course - but even under blind testing conditions our hearing is influenced by a multitude of other factors including temperature, comfort, mood, expectation etc. That's why I will always maintain that the only way a piece of hi-fi equipment can be properly evaluated is over an extended period in the home environment and even then it is almost a wholly subjective judgement. But then the music i enjoy is wholly subjective. As for measurements and blind tsting (the latter is fine I guess if you're an ant-foo zealot - I'm not!!) I don't listen to music by reviewing a series of data tables or when I'm blind-folded. Regards, Lindsay
    Lindsay,

    You are being too literal. Blind in my example merely refers to being unaware of the identity of which source/cable/amp or whatever you are comparing. I would certainly agree that time or any other environmental 'pressure' should be avoided. It should be a relaxed occasion to enjoy some favourite tunes. You would certainly hear real differences where they exist and especially if they 'matter', i.e. get in the way of your enjoyment.

    I remember doing a couple of bake-offs with modestly priced (on the scale of Hi Fi lunacy) computer/DAC combination being compared with CD555. The amount of glances at pre-amp lights before opinions were ventured was quite illuminating and the sheer terror of getting it 'wrong' in the eyes of someone being asked for an opinion before knowing what was playing, was palpable.

    The sighted thing causes far too much expectation. In sighted comparisons silver cables sound 'bright', valves sound 'warm' and all sorts of other expectation nonsense creeps in. I would agree with you totally if I thought you had to do uninfluenced comparisons under 'pressure', but there really is no need for that to be an issue. The worst that can happen is the odd sacred cow lies in a heap.

    As it happens I enjoyed a CDS3 for a good while, so while rude Rich gets his pantyhose in a tangle we had some common history of reference even if I'm not a fan of omnidirectional speakers. So it's unlikely we hear things that differently - maybe we heard different things but would agree when confronted with the same comparison - who knows?
    Last edited by SteveS1; 23-05-2012 at 04:49 PM.

  10. #50
    Moderator Polarbear's Avatar
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    For me its the extended home dem of a piece of equipment that decides whether I prefer something or not. This is what I have done for the last few purchases I have made. The only way to understand a piece of kit is to have it in your own familiar surroundings. I listen to all sorts of demo's and comparisons and yes you can make a snap descision but its not until you are fully relaxed at home that you can really tell.

    Saying that something has to grab your attention before you can do this and so far nothing has. I have listened to Naim streamers at length in their closed dems which I prefer to the open door approach.

    I did enjoy Tom Toms open day last year when I got to listen to the Ovators for a long period of time in a one of demonstration, no external noise etc and for the first time I can say I truely understand the Ovators. As and when I think streamers are a real alternative to the 555, I will get one home for a few weeks and then decide. So far nothing, in or out of Naim has convinced me that I should even get one home for comparison. Sorry, I know I must be blinkered but I enjoy my 555, what more is there to say?

    Regards

    PB

  11. #51
    Super Wammer SteveS1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarbear View Post
    The only way to understand a piece of kit is to have it in your own familiar surroundings. I listen to all sorts of demo's and comparisons and yes you can make a snap descision but its not until you are fully relaxed at home that you can really tell.

    Saying that something has to grab your attention before you can do this and so far nothing has. I have listened to Naim streamers at length in their closed dems which I prefer to the open door approach.

    PB
    The relaxed at home evaluation of a single bit of kit also has going for it the fact that we can convince ourselves of quite a lot given time, and for sure if we take any semblance of objectivity out of it by listening to it in isolation.

    In your case presumably some sifting of options takes place ahead of that. Or are you saying that, for example, you lived with four or five top CD players before choosing? My observation in a lot of other instances is that pretty much as long as it shows a clean pair of heels to previously favoured Naim solution - it's in.

    I popped over to the Naim forum to see old Rodders getting excited about his 'prototype' Naim NDS. What's the comparison? Err, cheaper Naim options. Well whoopy do, who'd have thought he would prefer the same brand's new solution over it's previous and cheaper one?

    Such ruminations hardly seem the stuff of rigorous comparison.

    Anyway, I didn't mean my little request of Rich for some idea as to why he thinks placing music files on a plastic spinning disc should imbue them with improved playback to drag on. This is bald men arguing over a comb time. Such is the high quality of much digital playback that differences between them pale compared to speakers and room interfaces.

    How long before you succumb to the NDS and two 555PS PB? I have a small wager on that being the case by this time next year btw, and only that long because it may take that long to get them out there. Probably won't have the reliability issues that some of those guys have had with door mechanisms, control software and all that either. Go on, it won't feel like a computer if it has some nice heavy boxes and a couple of hoses to join them. Get them into your rig soon, that old disc spinner will be gathering dust before you can say 'open door, pick up puck, place disc....err you get me......
    Last edited by SteveS1; 23-05-2012 at 07:12 PM.

  12. #52
    Wam Fooodly doo di da vacdac's Avatar
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    good post Steve.....I think your comments re the Naim forum pretty spot on & I'm not knocking Naim kit...it's just the bias & lack of perspective seem obvious

    SteveS1
    Such is the high quality of much digital playback that differences between them pale compared to speakers and room interfaces.
    I'd say you've hit the nail on the head with these last three observations

    The comb over comment woz tooootally hilarious

    Cheers Fella.

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  13. #53
    Moderator Polarbear's Avatar
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    Given your dislike of all things Naim and Naimee's I am surprised you still visit the sheep pen Steve.

    Rodders thread did make me chuckle and I haven't even read the thread

    As I said earlier steve, you and I are never going to agree on anything, Naim, comparison or other wise, its an old argument which is wearing a bit thin thesedays. All I can say is keep on enjoying your music, I do, immensley.

  14. #54
    Super Wammer The Strat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveS1 View Post
    How long before you succumb to the NDS and two 555PS PB? I have a small wager on that being the case by this time next year btw, and only that long because it may take that long to get them out there. Probably won't have the reliability issues that some of those guys have had with door mechanisms, control software and all that either. Go on, it won't feel like a computer if it has some nice heavy boxes and a couple of hoses to join them. Get them into your rig soon, that old disc spinner will be gathering dust before you can say 'open door, pick up puck, place disc....err you get me......
    Blimey Steve - I don't get you. Why so cynical?
    Nostalgia is not art (MIB 1 Jul 13)

  15. #55
    Moderator Polarbear's Avatar
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    How long before you succumb to the NDS and two 555PS PB? I have a small wager on that being the case by this time next year btw, and only that long because it may take that long to get them out there. Probably won't have the reliability issues that some of those guys have had with door mechanisms, control software and all that either. Go on, it won't feel like a computer if it has some nice heavy boxes and a couple of hoses to join them. Get them into your rig soon, that old disc spinner will be gathering dust before you can say 'open door, pick up puck, place disc....err you get me......
    Would you like some tomato sauce to go with that huge chip on your choulder Steve?

  16. #56
    Super Wammer The Strat's Avatar
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    PB - Wasn't it only about a year ago maybe a little more that the Lavry DAC was the last word in digital replay?
    Nostalgia is not art (MIB 1 Jul 13)

  17. #57
    Moderator Polarbear's Avatar
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    Lavry Dac, Oh how I had forgotten about that one. Isn't it very popular on Ebay thesedays?

  18. #58
    Super Wammer SteveS1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarbear View Post
    Would you like some tomato sauce to go with that huge chip on your choulder Steve?
    Where does the chip come in PB? Apart from as a deflection.

  19. #59
    Moderator Polarbear's Avatar
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    I would have thought it was obvious with the above posting Steve

  20. #60
    In the trade Wammer Purite Audio's Avatar
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    The Lavry Da10 is a decent budget dac,their own 924 was/is a much better dac.
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