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  1. #21
    Super Dooper Wammer johnniebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SergeAuckland View Post

    This where I have the biggest disagreement with some subjectivists, who see a pleasing result as more important than an accurate result.

    S.
    The mad fools

    I'm not crazy, my reality is just different to yours.............................

  2. #22
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnniebaby View Post
    The mad fools
    No, not mad, but with a different perspective on what's important.

    (I assume you meant it jocularly, but you make an important point:- What's the purpose of HiFi, pleasure or accuracy to the recording?)


    S.

  3. #23
    Super Dooper Wammer johnniebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SergeAuckland View Post
    No, not mad, but with a different perspective on what's important.

    (I assume you meant it jocularly, but you make an important point:- What's the purpose of HiFi, pleasure or accuracy to the recording?)


    S.
    Well, not pleasure obviously

    I'm not crazy, my reality is just different to yours.............................

  4. #24
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnniebaby View Post
    Well, not pleasure obviously
    No, not for me. The pleasure comes from the music, and the knowledge that I'm listening to a good recording reproduced as accurately as I'm able to. I would no more use a HiFi system that I knew was inaccurate, even though it might sound better, than I would add ketchup to a meal because it tasted better.

    S.

  5. #25
    Super Dooper Wammer johnniebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SergeAuckland View Post
    No, not for me. The pleasure comes from the music, and the knowledge that I'm listening to a good recording reproduced as accurately as I'm able to. I would no more use a HiFi system that I knew was inaccurate, even though it might sound better, than I would add ketchup to a meal because it tasted better.

    S.
    You are seriously weird, do you wear a hair shirt too?

    I'm not crazy, my reality is just different to yours.............................

  6. #26
    Deaf Wammer Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SergeAuckland View Post
    ..... it would take heroic incompetence .....

    What a wonderful phrase, I shall pinch it and use it as often as possible
    "We could have saved the Earth but we were too damned cheap" Kurt Vonnegut

  7. #27
    Wammer awkwardbydesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SergeAuckland View Post
    Violins are other musical instruments and are not trying to reproduce anything, they are the original, so any violin maker is quite free to make anything that to them sounds good. No measurements are necessary.

    HiFi isn't (or at least, not to me) an original, it's trying to reproduce a recording, and should (again to me) be as faithful to the original recording (NOT the original performance) as possible. This requires the equipment to distort the audio signal as little as possible, which is easily measureable. Whether one might prefer a less accurate reproduction is besides the point. If one does prefer a less accurate but more pleasing reproduction, then that's not HiFi, but an original performance in itself.

    This where I have the biggest disagreement with some subjectivists, who see a pleasing result as more important than an accurate result.

    S.
    Actually my main point was about defining measurement. But anyway, would you seriously prefer an unpleasant but objectively accurate sound? At home? And it seems you define HiFi as Peter Walker did, not my preferred definition, " the closest approach to the original MAGIC", which is wholly subjective. Remember we (most of us) are not working in a recording studio, but looking for pleasure. Sorry, listening.
    I feel that our various definitions, and desires, make it hard to find common ground, but the attempts are fascinating, and hopefully good natured.

  8. #28
    Wammer awkwardbydesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel View Post
    What a wonderful phrase, I shall pinch it and use it as often as possible
    The best kind.

  9. #29
    Pac67
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    Of course, all this pales into insignificance if the room acoustics are rubbish. You can have as accurate a system as you like, and then simply ruin the effect by accepting
    loads of distortion through reflection etc. A bit like Ketchup on Caviare eh Serge? This never ending desire for better and better accuracy can become a little OCD (IMHO). Fact is most modern amps are good (if S/N ratio and THD is a measure of "good"), ditto source components, so the differences between them (so it seems to me) are largely synergy (ok, correct matching) and personal preference. To my mind the most important aspect is having the right loudspeakers for the room and making at least some attempt to correct unwanted reflections, bass boom or whatever. Thats where the real gains are to be had but the ironic thing is virtually no-one I know bothers with room acoustics even though they're willing to shell out 1000's on kit. May as well have a "Ketchup" system in that regard as long as you enjoy the sound

  10. #30
    Wammer Fatmarley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SergeAuckland View Post
    I would no more use a HiFi system that I knew was inaccurate, even though it might sound better
    I wise man once said "If it sounds good it is good"

  11. #31
    Leper Wammer AmDismal's Avatar
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    Logically, if you can hear it, then you can measure it. The questions then are:
    - are we measuring the right thing?
    - are the measurements sensitive enough?

    I think that the second one must be answered mostly yes - we are using equipment to measure that we use to record in the first place. The problem, for me, is in correlating what we measure with what we hear. There is still a way to go, I think, before those charts in hifi mags actually make real audio sense to me.

    But for me, it is the listening that is more commonly at fault. Using tools like audiodiffmaker, which just shows if there is a difference between two items, we often get 'clearly audible' differences that are demonstrably identical to -90dB, which you really will not hear. Unfortunately, the really acute measuring tools like this cannot show which is best, so we need to use our ears after all - but I think it's important to understand their fallibility.
    Compression drivers twerk my eardrums

  12. #32
    Happy Wammer pgarrish's Avatar
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    It can be as accurate as you want, but unless you have perfect ears and wiring, it doesn't matter how it measures outside your head, it matters how it measures in your head, and to my knowledge, they can't do that very easily!

  13. #33
    Super Wammer AdamK's Avatar
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    Do the measurements tell us anything meaningful ?

    Why do people still bother with vinyl and valves when alternatives measure better ? Whats the point if our hearing does not support the measurements ?
    Ridicule is nothing to be scared of

  14. #34
    Wammer Lokes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnniebaby View Post
    The mad fools
    Totally agree JB
    I'll stand up and be counted as someone
    who wants a pleasing result, as it's highly unlikely I was there at the particular recording I can have no knowledge
    if it's accurate or not. I'll leave it for others to lose sleep over this while I pour myself another glass of red
    "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing."

  15. #35
    Wammer awkwardbydesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgarrish View Post
    It can be as accurate as you want, but unless you have perfect ears and wiring, it doesn't matter how it measures outside your head, it matters how it measures in your head, and to my knowledge, they can't do that very easily!
    Perfect ears and wiring???? In your head? Joking aside, I'm with you 100%, my earlier point being, THAT is the measurement that counts. With or without the wiring.

  16. #36
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatmarley View Post
    I wise man once said "If it sounds good it is good"
    That depends on one's definition of "good". "Good" to me isn't what it sounds like, but how little it distorts what it's reproducing. You may have a different definition of "good".

    S.

  17. #37
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokes View Post
    Totally agree JB
    I'll stand up and be counted as someone
    who wants a pleasing result, as it's highly unlikely I was there at the particular recording I can have no knowledge
    if it's accurate or not. I'll leave it for others to lose sleep over this while I pour myself another glass of red
    I think you make the mistake of equating accuracy of reproduction of the recording, with accuracy of the recording. I fully agree with you that I can have no idea what the original was like, and indeed, in almost every recording these days, the is no original performance as pretty much all recordings are assembled from a number of takes, overdubs, signal processing and so on such that what's on the final CD never existed as a complete work. I'm only concerned with reproducing what's coming off the CD with the minimum of distortions of all sorts such that what leaves my loudspeakers is as close to what was on the CD as possible. Then, this will be modified by my room, and I will interpret it through my brain, but at least as far as I am able, I have messed around with the recording as little as possible.

    S.

  18. #38
    Super Wammer mmar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatmarley View Post
    I wise man once said "If it sounds good it is good"
    duke Ellington , but he was describing live music not hifi

  19. #39
    In the trade Wammer pure sound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SergeAuckland View Post
    I'm only concerned with reproducing what's coming off the CD with the minimum of distortions of all sorts such that what leaves my loudspeakers is as close to what was on the CD as possible. .
    What is on the CD is effectively Ones & Noughts. It's unlikely that your speakers will be reproducing those. An appraisal or comparison with what is on the CD would actually require you to be able to listen to the recording before it is digitised. Then you might have a chance of assessing whether your speakers are reproducing something similar. As it is, however accurate you might think your electronics are, the speakers and your room will be adding distortion orders of magnitude greater so you are actually no nearer the truth than those who choose amplifiers with marginally more distortion but perhaps speakers that are an easier load, or which simply produce less distortion because the diaphragms don't have to move as far and the voice coils stay closer to where the field in the magnet gap is more linear in its effect.

  20. #40
    Too much time on my hands SergeAuckland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure sound View Post
    What is on the CD is effectively Ones & Noughts. It's unlikely that your speakers will be reproducing those. An appraisal or comparison with what is on the CD would actually require you to be able to listen to the recording before it is digitised. Then you might have a chance of assessing whether your speakers are reproducing something similar. As it is, however accurate you might think your electronics are, the speakers and your room will be adding distortion orders of magnitude greater so you are actually no nearer the truth than those who choose amplifiers with marginally more distortion but perhaps speakers that are an easier load, or which simply produce less distortion because the diaphragms don't have to move as far and the voice coils stay closer to where the field in the magnet gap is more linear in its effect.
    Only if you believe that a CD player's DAC can't return an accurate rendition of the digital signal. As pretty much any modern DAC is capable of a very high degree of linearity, I think it's safe to assume that the analogue signal coming out of the CD player represents the desired analogue waveform accurately. That then is passed to the amplifier, which again is linear (or should be) to a very high order. Finally, the loudspeakers have to convert that analogue voltage to air pressure variations, and this is where the most distortions occur. Nevertheless, even these variations of the air pressure at the loudspeaker cones can be quite accurate before the room's effects take over. I see the job of the HiFi system to render such variations in air pressure at the loudspeaker cones/diaphragms as accurately as possible. If it does that, I can't ask for any more.

    S.

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