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  1. #41
    Super Wammer
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    Or maybe a plinth within a plinth.
    I'am getting one soon but haven't seen exactly how it's made properly yet.
    Pretty shocked at the amount of sound the td 124 i'am borrowing is picking up.

  2. #42
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    Cheap little rubber choc squares then onto a lack? table.

  3. #43
    Jedi Wammer fordy's Avatar
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    In the vain hope that I can buy my way out, I'm looking at the Yamamoto Soundcraft MGB-1 maglev footers. If these don't fix it, nothing will and I'll have to revert back to the pink.

    Anyone got any experience with maglev footers?
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  4. #44
    Hifi Global AmDismal's Avatar
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    Try the Seismic Sink (or bike inner tube, inflated as little as possible) idea. You just want it so that it wobbles at about the frequency of a jelly - somewhere around 1-4Hz. This will provide excellent decoupling at all audio frequencies. Really.

    The magnets might work, but may well have too high a resonant frequency, so you will still get breakthrough at low frequencies, just where you don't want it. It depends on the strength of the magnets and the weight of the TT, and you will be stuck if it's wrong, whereas the bike inner tube can be pumped up or released to ensure that it wobbles just right.

  5. #45
    Wammer paolofrancesco's Avatar
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    Hi Fordy- some mates are starting an SP10 Mk2 plinth project-not such a nicelooker as yours but rock steady.
    Making own plinths from birchply/panzerholz and considering following arms
    Ikeda IT407-superb build and ease of set up and works brill with Koetsus and SPUs
    SME 3012 silver re-wired and stainless steel arm tubes
    Will try to post photos...

  6. #46
    Wammer paolofrancesco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by russ abbott - royds brother View Post
    Cheap little rubber choc squares then onto a lack? table.
    Stu-also depends on whether floor is suspended or solid. I have footfall issues that feed their way in sometimes and I am using spilked Schopper Plinth(solid and weighs 10 plus kilos) and this is supported on Finite Elemente Pagode MR with Cerabase feet. I need to move!!

    Anyhow Art Dudley of Sterophile experienced some issues of resonance I think, when a Schick arm was mounted onto the chassis mounted tonearm board.His solution was radical ie mounting the arm off chassis. I have a Panzerholz board and Schoppers supplied 3 neoprene spacers with instructions not to over tighten screws or compress the washers in any way----this seems to work upto a point, and may provide a cheaper solution.

  7. #47
    Super Wammer pure sound's Avatar
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    I need to look more at tonearm mounting. A part of me says that introducing lossiness must inevitably compromise the retrieval of detail even though, in theory, it also provides a degree of isolation for the tonearm from the motor unit. Certainly all of the experiments I made in the past with acrylic/wood based armboards all tended to curtail HF extension. After all, you wouldn't make the armtube or bearings out of neoprene or some other 'soft' material & expect the cartridge to capture fine detail.

    It's a tricky subject and I suspect there's no 'right' solution that would work for every tonearm.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by paolofrancesco View Post
    Stu-also depends on whether floor is suspended or solid. I have footfall issues that feed their way in sometimes and I am using spilked Schopper Plinth(solid and weighs 10 plus kilos) and this is supported on Finite Elemente Pagode MR with Cerabase feet. I need to move!!

    Anyhow Art Dudley of Sterophile experienced some issues of resonance I think, when a Schick arm was mounted onto the chassis mounted tonearm board.His solution was radical ie mounting the arm off chassis. I have a Panzerholz board and Schoppers supplied 3 neoprene spacers with instructions not to over tighten screws or compress the washers in any way----this seems to work upto a point, and may provide a cheaper solution.

    It is on a solid floor,the 124 is on loan but hoping to be getting a 301 in the coming months.
    Wood like to get the decks on the wall but it is all stud work a 60 cm distance which would mean putting up a rip of thick ply to get a good enough fixing which would look rubbish.

    Will have a look at other options though.

  9. #49
    Super Wammer pure sound's Avatar
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    I'll have to lend you the 'portable' SP10 Stu, I just need to put an arm on it (probably the Alphason)

  10. #50
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    That would be nice to try.
    Idler,belt and dd....would be cool to try with the same cart.

  11. #51
    Hifi Global AmDismal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure sound View Post
    I need to look more at tonearm mounting. A part of me says that introducing lossiness must inevitably compromise the retrieval of detail even though, in theory, it also provides a degree of isolation for the tonearm from the motor unit. Certainly all of the experiments I made in the past with acrylic/wood based armboards all tended to curtail HF extension. After all, you wouldn't make the armtube or bearings out of neoprene or some other 'soft' material & expect the cartridge to capture fine detail.

    It's a tricky subject and I suspect there's no 'right' solution that would work for every tonearm.
    The technically perfect solution must be that you must closely couple the arm with the vinyl, with no lossiness at all, but have lossiness between that and the motor (if possible) and the environment (as much as possible). But what I love about vinyl is the extent to which perfect cannot be attained, and where you make the compromises. If you have a direct (or idler) drive, you want to decouple this from the cartridge, but there is no 'right' place to do this - clearly the motor is coupled to the vinyl, so how can you decouple it from the cartridge while keeping the vinyl-cart coupling.

    Naturally you know this, and have experimented with decoupling at different points. How do you evaluate? Is there anything that you can hold onto apart from 'sounds better'?

    What would the perfect deck be? I would have thought semi-lossy idler (via a damped, rubber idler wheel) and closely-coupled arm-platter, purely from assertion and theory, but in practice close coupling is probably hard to manage, as there will be resonances in the audible spectrum. Digital, then

  12. #52
    Super Wammer pure sound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmDismal View Post
    The technically perfect solution must be that you must closely couple the arm with the vinyl, with no lossiness at all, but have lossiness between that and the motor (if possible) and the environment (as much as possible).
    The implication of this leads you to Max Townshend's trough & damping at the headshell. I've listened to this approach many times but have never been convinced by it. I'd rather simply rely on the arm's mass and the compliance of the cartridge suspension to give the appropriate filter and make the the cartridge body appear immovable at audio frequencies.

    At the other end, where the arm mounts I can see the argument for trying to prevent vibration from anywhere (the motor unit or the outside world) from getting into the arm. However preventing the vibration that would be an issue (ie at audio frequencies) from affecting the arm must mean that the same lossiness will be seen from the arm's perspective when ideally it will be sitting in a perfectly still & inert platform.

    There have been many different ways to try to get round this, one of the most interesting being that on the Continuum where the arm sits in a CF plate suspended on kevlar threads and held firm by a system of magnets attracting each other & holding it in place. But I'm still not sure. I don't know if a truly effective one way mechanical filter is possible. As with everything, it's likely that some compromise needs to be made.

  13. #53
    Wammer Steve748's Avatar
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    Mine is sitting on a 40mm slate plinth supported by four cast metal cones with the points sitting in rubber grommets set in the plinth.

    I found the PS hummed so sat it on a foam isolating block as unfortunately I don't really have anywhere else to site it.

    Appearing soon in the sales area.

  14. #54
    100% Analogue YNWAN's Avatar
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    Guy, how would you characterise the Townshend trough damping sound?
    __________________

    I also find the continuum solution an interesting one .

  15. #55
    Hifi Global AmDismal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure sound View Post
    I'd rather simply rely on the arm's mass and the compliance of the cartridge suspension to give the appropriate filter and make the the cartridge body appear immovable at audio frequencies.
    The Townshend analogy is interesting - his original seismic sinks were undamped, similar to your proposal, whereas he has moved to a (theoretically better, I think) system of damped springs.

    I think I'd like to hear a front-end damping system implemented on a DD or idler TT. It would be interesting to try such a thing with a DIY linear tracker tonearm, a project for 2015 perhaps

  16. #56
    Super Wammer pure sound's Avatar
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    In the simplest terms, a lack of 'air'. I'd have thought the effect must be measurable with an appropriate test record. It isn't that it sounds rolled off necessarily but something changes at HF. Of course, others may prefer that presentation, arguing that you are hearing what is on the record without the arm joining in as much and I have no problem with that viewpoint. But I invariably have preferred it without the damping and not just on the Rock. It may be that you are coupling the headshell too much to a source of noise, I don't know. Perhaps it explains why cartridges like the Decca are often found on the Rock?

  17. #57
    Jedi Wammer fordy's Avatar
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    Well I have made significant strides on isolating the deck, minimizing the effects of footfalls and generally setting the deck up optimally. The last week has been quite a journey in experimentation.

    Firstly the footfall issue was really bothering me. The first job was to reinstate the Quadraspire rack as it is most stable. I had to use an additional top board (decoupled with Sorbothane footers) to get the necessary real estate for the large Technics plinth. I was disappointed to find out that this arrangement made no meaningful difference however.

    Examination of the original feet of the SH-B3 plinth revealed that they had internally collapsed due to degradation of the rubber so these had to go. I need leveling capability on any replacement and there was surprisingly little choice. I ended up with some inexpensive metal cones from “Inacustic” stuck to the underside of the SH-B3 (the ends of the cones/spikes have level adjustment) with the spikey end sat in matching cups atop the support. I didn’t believe I was in for any significant isolation; I was just trying to ensure I could level the deck. Somewhat surprisingly this brought about a very worthwhile change. It doesn’t totally isolate, this is not going to be possible because the floor visibly deflects when you are stood too close to the record player, but it massively reduced thuds from people walking normally across the room. Progress…



    To see if the phono stage made a difference I plugged in a Graham Slee Revelation phono stage to see if it’s quoted frequency response of 20Hz – 20kHz would reduce the effect of very low frequency intrusion. It did make a positive impact too, again, not a panacea but a step in the right direction. It’s reduced the bass bloom significantly although I am not entirely sure I enjoy the overall presentation. This is to be revisited anyway when I’m faffing with headshells/cartridges/loading in the next few months.



    Next was to see if I could then isolate the whole rig on some kind of sprung damping arrangement. As suggested, I had a look around the Tokyo hifi stores for a Seismic Sink or something similar but with no luck. A simple inner tube wouldn’t suffice here due to frequent earthquakes; the deck would simply roll off the top of the rack! So I returned to the idea of maglev footers.

    The Yamamoto Sound Craft MGB-1 footers are readily available and very reasonably priced here so I decided to try those. I’m using them between the topboard the deck sits on and the Quadraspire rack, in place of the Sorbothane footers. They are a bit of a pain to set up. Since the turntable/plinth has an uneven weight distribution, it takes a frustrating few hours moving them around trying to get equal gaps between the magnets on each footer and ensuring that the MGB-1’s don’t bind on the nylon-sheathed retaining screw under load. You are never really sure if you have nailed it or not. This brought back bad memories of trying to get optimal bounce on LP12’s .



    The load carrying specs for these footers are 2-10kg each. With a roughly 25kg rig up top I figured it would be ok. I have to say that it’s marginal. There is only about a 4ml gap between the magnets and there isn’t a lot of bounce evident. I was assuming at this point it would be problematic because it seems to me the greater the compression of the spring, the damping rate will change and move away from lower to higher frequencies. Not what I need really. A footfall test revealed some useful improvement but, again, not a total solution.

    So basically where I am with footfalls is that, given the significant faffage and expense involved to fix the problem entirely, I have a few remaining choices. Re-site the deck (domestic harmony issues), postpone the SP10 adventure (nah..) or live with it (this). In any case I am quite pleased with the effort so far, particularly because of what happened next…



    I really needed to listen to some music already so set about setting the deck up properly again. Having got the plinth level I spent some time optimizing level on the arm/armboard. It turns out the ebony armboard surface is a little uneven so putting the bubble level on it is pointless. Luckily the top of the bearing housing is fixed on the Ortofon arm so I realized this was the best place to site the bubble level to ensure it was totally level with the platter. I had to shim up the armboard a little in a few places with washers. Interestingly I avoided bolting it down to the plinth too hard this time as it upset the level. As the armboard sits on a rubber gasket anyway it’s obviously designed to be a lossy coupling so I figured level was more important the torque. This might be a relevant…

    The armboard sits a little high and depending on cartridge, I cannot get the back of the arm low enough for correct VTA. I’ve had to put the Oyaide mat to one side for now and use a couple of other mats to raise the record playing surface. A 5mm Achromat, sits on top a Denon rubber mat (that came with the deck) which sits on the Technics platter. I’ll revisit the armboard and Oyaide mat another time but for now this arrangement allows me to get correct VTA with a Shelter 501.2 cartridge. I wanted to use this cart because it is already run in and it gives me a steady baseline. I also bolted the Shelter into a Yamamoto HS-4S CF headshell as the few carts I’d briefly used in this headshell seemed to work very well indeed. As I said, headshells/carts/mats are to be revisited but this is the set-up for now. Some of these setup changes might be significant…



    So there has been quite a lot of cumulative change since I last listened to this beast. I finally got to spin a couple of recs again last night, Rickie Lee Jones and Antonio Forcione/Sabine Sciubba. You’ve got to give a new rig a chance right? If these ladies don’t sound lovely on any deck you are wasting your time. Anyway I needed something soothing.

    Its early days obviously but what stands out so far is that the noise floor has dropped significantly, allowing the soundstage to bristle with low level details. I haven’t had the Rickie Lee Jones LP for long so have only ever heard it on the Techy a couple of times over the last few weeks. It’s a nice dynamic record and sounded very “70’s” in its balance - a bit warm and cuddly. Not now! Bass is very tight, soundstage is large, scale is correct and Rickie and Sabine have that palpability and physicality that drives me towards essentially neutral and detailed systems. The only negative from the initial listen is a bit of hardness in the upper-mids on female voice. Lots more listening to do but this is a very positive outcome overall.



    I feel as though I should validate my own analogue credentials somehow at this point, lest you think I’m a turntable newbie that’s just heard something great for the first time. I’ll just say that I am no stranger to top quality record replay, I have consistently played and preferred records for over 25 years, mostly on Pink Triangle record players (LPT/Export/Anni) and in recent times, having had more than (broad guess, lost count) 20+ other turntables (including a lot of Linn and Lenco activity), 20+ arms, 30 or so cartridges (mostly MC’s), 10+ phono stages and so on through my listening room. A scenario familiar to many Wammers! The pinnacle has remained the PT Anniversary/SMEIV/Accurate/LFD combo which I am sure you can imagine is a highly accomplished combination. It remains my reference, in my system. Some of the analogue fookery alluded to above has been to broaden my knowledge of analogue replay purely out of interest but much of it has been to try to see if I could better the Anni. Well finally, after 6 years, I’ve found something that can properly stand toe to toe. This SP10 rig is right up there trading attributes with the Anni.

    What surprises me most is just how bloody good this Shelter 501.2 cartridge is. I bought it lightly used as a stop gap while I got the SP10 sorted out and assumed it would be quite a step back from what I have been spoiled with. Not on the evidence so far!



    As we know, even the best vinyl spinners are compromised in some for or other and with this set-up I am trading isolation for speed stability. The non-negotiable element for me is retaining very high resolution capability which is essential for what I want. It is the starting point from which I’d like to develop the SP10 from. I can flavor with a dash of warmth and naturalness, balanced with detail through cartridge choice, an approach I am familiar with as it worked so well for me on the Anni. Clearly there is also mileage in isolation devices and maybe even plinths one day when I get around to 12” tonearms.

    How much difference each individual step I took in the last week has made is difficult to say. In particular, the maglev footers accompanied many other changes at the same time. Anyway, I have a starting point to go on from now. Oh, and I can’t say this ‘Obsidian’ plinth is letting the SP10 down at all.
    Last edited by fordy; 23-05-2012 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Pics
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  18. #58
    Wammer
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    I'm not sure if you have seen this article http://www.theanalogdept.com/diy%27i...me_machine.htm

    where they use large steel ball bearings to isolate vibrations in the same way tower blocks in Japan are built to with stand earthquakes, which could be useful considering where you are at the moment.

    Also have you thought of asking the locals what they recommend as I would imagine Japanese audiophiles would have a lot of experience of dealing with vibrations as they tend to live in less than ideal conditions trains, subways and not to be forgotten earthquakes

  19. #59
    Super Dooper Wammer f1eng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moko View Post
    I'm not sure if you have seen this article http://www.theanalogdept.com/diy%27i...me_machine.htm

    where they use large steel ball bearings to isolate vibrations in the same way tower blocks in Japan are built to with stand earthquakes, which could be useful considering where you are at the moment.

    Also have you thought of asking the locals what they recommend as I would imagine Japanese audiophiles would have a lot of experience of dealing with vibrations as they tend to live in less than ideal conditions trains, subways and not to be forgotten earthquakes
    There are 6 degrees of freedom and it would be ideal to isolate from disturbance in all six. These devices isolate very well for lateral disturbance, and rotation in one of the degrees of freedom, that deals with 3 of them!
    For vertical disturbance and the other two rotational degrees of freedom they don't isolate at all, so they need to be used in conjunction with other isolation. Since traditional sprung sub chassis tend to be fairly precise for vertical disturbance they may be a good addition. Some conventional spring suspensions don't isolate rotational disturbance too well, depending on rotational inertias and spring spacing. The original AR type, and its emulators, was/is quite good, the big units with suspension in the corners tend not to be.

  20. #60
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    Quick question for the SP-10 experts.
    My strobe light seems only to want to work every other day. It is not something that bothers me that much. Is there an easy fix?
    The voltages out of the power supply are always good. is it just the bulb on the way out perhaps?

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