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  1. #61
    Leper Wammer AmDismal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure sound View Post
    I'd rather simply rely on the arm's mass and the compliance of the cartridge suspension to give the appropriate filter and make the the cartridge body appear immovable at audio frequencies.
    The Townshend analogy is interesting - his original seismic sinks were undamped, similar to your proposal, whereas he has moved to a (theoretically better, I think) system of damped springs.

    I think I'd like to hear a front-end damping system implemented on a DD or idler TT. It would be interesting to try such a thing with a DIY linear tracker tonearm, a project for 2015 perhaps
    Compression drivers twerk my eardrums

  2. #62
    In the trade Wammer pure sound's Avatar
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    In the simplest terms, a lack of 'air'. I'd have thought the effect must be measurable with an appropriate test record. It isn't that it sounds rolled off necessarily but something changes at HF. Of course, others may prefer that presentation, arguing that you are hearing what is on the record without the arm joining in as much and I have no problem with that viewpoint. But I invariably have preferred it without the damping and not just on the Rock. It may be that you are coupling the headshell too much to a source of noise, I don't know. Perhaps it explains why cartridges like the Decca are often found on the Rock?

  3. #63
    Nippon Wammer fordy's Avatar
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    Well I have made significant strides on isolating the deck, minimizing the effects of footfalls and generally setting the deck up optimally. The last week has been quite a journey in experimentation.

    Firstly the footfall issue was really bothering me. The first job was to reinstate the Quadraspire rack as it is most stable. I had to use an additional top board (decoupled with Sorbothane footers) to get the necessary real estate for the large Technics plinth. I was disappointed to find out that this arrangement made no meaningful difference however.

    Examination of the original feet of the SH-B3 plinth revealed that they had internally collapsed due to degradation of the rubber so these had to go. I need leveling capability on any replacement and there was surprisingly little choice. I ended up with some inexpensive metal cones from “Inacustic” stuck to the underside of the SH-B3 (the ends of the cones/spikes have level adjustment) with the spikey end sat in matching cups atop the support. I didn’t believe I was in for any significant isolation; I was just trying to ensure I could level the deck. Somewhat surprisingly this brought about a very worthwhile change. It doesn’t totally isolate, this is not going to be possible because the floor visibly deflects when you are stood too close to the record player, but it massively reduced thuds from people walking normally across the room. Progress…



    To see if the phono stage made a difference I plugged in a Graham Slee Revelation phono stage to see if it’s quoted frequency response of 20Hz – 20kHz would reduce the effect of very low frequency intrusion. It did make a positive impact too, again, not a panacea but a step in the right direction. It’s reduced the bass bloom significantly although I am not entirely sure I enjoy the overall presentation. This is to be revisited anyway when I’m faffing with headshells/cartridges/loading in the next few months.



    Next was to see if I could then isolate the whole rig on some kind of sprung damping arrangement. As suggested, I had a look around the Tokyo hifi stores for a Seismic Sink or something similar but with no luck. A simple inner tube wouldn’t suffice here due to frequent earthquakes; the deck would simply roll off the top of the rack! So I returned to the idea of maglev footers.

    The Yamamoto Sound Craft MGB-1 footers are readily available and very reasonably priced here so I decided to try those. I’m using them between the topboard the deck sits on and the Quadraspire rack, in place of the Sorbothane footers. They are a bit of a pain to set up. Since the turntable/plinth has an uneven weight distribution, it takes a frustrating few hours moving them around trying to get equal gaps between the magnets on each footer and ensuring that the MGB-1’s don’t bind on the nylon-sheathed retaining screw under load. You are never really sure if you have nailed it or not. This brought back bad memories of trying to get optimal bounce on LP12’s .



    The load carrying specs for these footers are 2-10kg each. With a roughly 25kg rig up top I figured it would be ok. I have to say that it’s marginal. There is only about a 4ml gap between the magnets and there isn’t a lot of bounce evident. I was assuming at this point it would be problematic because it seems to me the greater the compression of the spring, the damping rate will change and move away from lower to higher frequencies. Not what I need really. A footfall test revealed some useful improvement but, again, not a total solution.

    So basically where I am with footfalls is that, given the significant faffage and expense involved to fix the problem entirely, I have a few remaining choices. Re-site the deck (domestic harmony issues), postpone the SP10 adventure (nah..) or live with it (this). In any case I am quite pleased with the effort so far, particularly because of what happened next…



    I really needed to listen to some music already so set about setting the deck up properly again. Having got the plinth level I spent some time optimizing level on the arm/armboard. It turns out the ebony armboard surface is a little uneven so putting the bubble level on it is pointless. Luckily the top of the bearing housing is fixed on the Ortofon arm so I realized this was the best place to site the bubble level to ensure it was totally level with the platter. I had to shim up the armboard a little in a few places with washers. Interestingly I avoided bolting it down to the plinth too hard this time as it upset the level. As the armboard sits on a rubber gasket anyway it’s obviously designed to be a lossy coupling so I figured level was more important the torque. This might be a relevant…

    The armboard sits a little high and depending on cartridge, I cannot get the back of the arm low enough for correct VTA. I’ve had to put the Oyaide mat to one side for now and use a couple of other mats to raise the record playing surface. A 5mm Achromat, sits on top a Denon rubber mat (that came with the deck) which sits on the Technics platter. I’ll revisit the armboard and Oyaide mat another time but for now this arrangement allows me to get correct VTA with a Shelter 501.2 cartridge. I wanted to use this cart because it is already run in and it gives me a steady baseline. I also bolted the Shelter into a Yamamoto HS-4S CF headshell as the few carts I’d briefly used in this headshell seemed to work very well indeed. As I said, headshells/carts/mats are to be revisited but this is the set-up for now. Some of these setup changes might be significant…



    So there has been quite a lot of cumulative change since I last listened to this beast. I finally got to spin a couple of recs again last night, Rickie Lee Jones and Antonio Forcione/Sabine Sciubba. You’ve got to give a new rig a chance right? If these ladies don’t sound lovely on any deck you are wasting your time. Anyway I needed something soothing.

    Its early days obviously but what stands out so far is that the noise floor has dropped significantly, allowing the soundstage to bristle with low level details. I haven’t had the Rickie Lee Jones LP for long so have only ever heard it on the Techy a couple of times over the last few weeks. It’s a nice dynamic record and sounded very “70’s” in its balance - a bit warm and cuddly. Not now! Bass is very tight, soundstage is large, scale is correct and Rickie and Sabine have that palpability and physicality that drives me towards essentially neutral and detailed systems. The only negative from the initial listen is a bit of hardness in the upper-mids on female voice. Lots more listening to do but this is a very positive outcome overall.



    I feel as though I should validate my own analogue credentials somehow at this point, lest you think I’m a turntable newbie that’s just heard something great for the first time. I’ll just say that I am no stranger to top quality record replay, I have consistently played and preferred records for over 25 years, mostly on Pink Triangle record players (LPT/Export/Anni) and in recent times, having had more than (broad guess, lost count) 20+ other turntables (including a lot of Linn and Lenco activity), 20+ arms, 30 or so cartridges (mostly MC’s), 10+ phono stages and so on through my listening room. A scenario familiar to many Wammers! The pinnacle has remained the PT Anniversary/SMEIV/Accurate/LFD combo which I am sure you can imagine is a highly accomplished combination. It remains my reference, in my system. Some of the analogue fookery alluded to above has been to broaden my knowledge of analogue replay purely out of interest but much of it has been to try to see if I could better the Anni. Well finally, after 6 years, I’ve found something that can properly stand toe to toe. This SP10 rig is right up there trading attributes with the Anni.

    What surprises me most is just how bloody good this Shelter 501.2 cartridge is. I bought it lightly used as a stop gap while I got the SP10 sorted out and assumed it would be quite a step back from what I have been spoiled with. Not on the evidence so far!



    As we know, even the best vinyl spinners are compromised in some for or other and with this set-up I am trading isolation for speed stability. The non-negotiable element for me is retaining very high resolution capability which is essential for what I want. It is the starting point from which I’d like to develop the SP10 from. I can flavor with a dash of warmth and naturalness, balanced with detail through cartridge choice, an approach I am familiar with as it worked so well for me on the Anni. Clearly there is also mileage in isolation devices and maybe even plinths one day when I get around to 12” tonearms.

    How much difference each individual step I took in the last week has made is difficult to say. In particular, the maglev footers accompanied many other changes at the same time. Anyway, I have a starting point to go on from now. Oh, and I can’t say this ‘Obsidian’ plinth is letting the SP10 down at all.
    Last edited by fordy; 23-05-2012 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Pics
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  4. #64
    Wammer
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    I'm not sure if you have seen this article http://www.theanalogdept.com/diy%27i...me_machine.htm

    where they use large steel ball bearings to isolate vibrations in the same way tower blocks in Japan are built to with stand earthquakes, which could be useful considering where you are at the moment.

    Also have you thought of asking the locals what they recommend as I would imagine Japanese audiophiles would have a lot of experience of dealing with vibrations as they tend to live in less than ideal conditions trains, subways and not to be forgotten earthquakes

  5. #65
    Wammer f1eng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moko View Post
    I'm not sure if you have seen this article http://www.theanalogdept.com/diy%27i...me_machine.htm

    where they use large steel ball bearings to isolate vibrations in the same way tower blocks in Japan are built to with stand earthquakes, which could be useful considering where you are at the moment.

    Also have you thought of asking the locals what they recommend as I would imagine Japanese audiophiles would have a lot of experience of dealing with vibrations as they tend to live in less than ideal conditions trains, subways and not to be forgotten earthquakes
    There are 6 degrees of freedom and it would be ideal to isolate from disturbance in all six. These devices isolate very well for lateral disturbance, and rotation in one of the degrees of freedom, that deals with 3 of them!
    For vertical disturbance and the other two rotational degrees of freedom they don't isolate at all, so they need to be used in conjunction with other isolation. Since traditional sprung sub chassis tend to be fairly precise for vertical disturbance they may be a good addition. Some conventional spring suspensions don't isolate rotational disturbance too well, depending on rotational inertias and spring spacing. The original AR type, and its emulators, was/is quite good, the big units with suspension in the corners tend not to be.
    If there is a clearly audible difference which does not show up in your measurements, you are measuring the wrong parameters.

  6. #66
    Super Wammer bmtell's Avatar
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    Quick question for the SP-10 experts.
    My strobe light seems only to want to work every other day. It is not something that bothers me that much. Is there an easy fix?
    The voltages out of the power supply are always good. is it just the bulb on the way out perhaps?

  7. #67
    In the trade Wammer pure sound's Avatar
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    I think it's just the neon bulb. On one of my decks it doesn't work at all (maybe once every 6 month for a moment). Funnily enough given that the speed never visibly wanders or wavers it doesn't seem to be much use anyway!

    I have read of people replacing it with an orange LED & presumably an appropriate value of resistor but I haven't looked any further into what that would involve & where it'd go.

  8. #68
    HiFi Dealer Wammer BD Audio's Avatar
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    Mine did the same, sometimes works, sometimes not.

  9. #69
    Super Wammer bmtell's Avatar
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    I think I'll just leave it be then.
    I read summat about replacing it with an led but it seemed a massive faff for something that has no effect on the sound.

  10. #70
    Wammer f1eng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure sound View Post
    I'd rather simply rely on the arm's mass and the compliance of the cartridge suspension to give the appropriate filter and make the the cartridge body appear immovable at audio frequencies.
    Unfortunately the system is too complicated/imperfect for this to happen in any available arm/cartridge.

    The only way for the cartridge body to be stationary relative to the record at audio frequencies would be to remove all damping from the cantilever suspension. This doesn't work since the first resonance -will- be excited, and undamped in most conventional arms, causing groove skipping etc. So cartridges, to be "universal" have to have damping in them, despite it being the wrong place. This has been known in the industry for over 40 years.
    The correct location of the system damping for what you describe to occur would be between the cartridge body and disc surface. This would damp out the first resonance without partially shorting out the audio frequencies between stylus and cartridge body.
    Shure made an attempt to do this in the 70s using a damped brush running on the disc surface. I have never heard one, but there was talk of the brush picking up groove modulation and transferring it to the cartridge body. Whether this is true, or just bias against anything different I don't know (!) it certainly would be possible to make the brush bristles bigger than the groove to make this unlikely. It was eventually dropped I believe.
    The Townshend solution is not the best solution, but probably would be better than any other IF ONLY A CARTRIDGE WITH NO CANTILEVER DAMPING WAS AVAILABLE As it is AFAIK ther is -no- cartridge available which would allow the superiority or otherwise of the Townshend approach to be verified.

    Having damping in a non-ideal place is probably not worse than having too much due to having it in 2 places, however potentially superior one of thease places is.

    Vibration entering the arm where it is mounted (and airborne too) definitely moves the cartridge body relative to the disc and produces an output. The best approach to minimising this that I have seen involved laser vibration measurement of the complete record deck an modifying the arm mount to minimise vibration there at audio frequencies. This is expensive engineering not available to all.
    If there is a clearly audible difference which does not show up in your measurements, you are measuring the wrong parameters.

  11. #71
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    Interesting thread.
    I also had read some negative comments regarding the technics "obsidian" plinth.
    So I went to the expense of buying another SP-10MK2 and another EPA-100 and getting a high quality cld birch ply plinth
    made up to compare with my Technics SL-1000MK2.
    To cut a long story short , the original Technics plinth sounds better to me.
    A good tweak is to use Isonoe feet with the glass discs and sorbothane cups.....Isonoe will custom make a set to suit the turntables 23kg weight.

  12. #72
    Nippon Wammer fordy's Avatar
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    Thanks for that Mr SP10. :-)

    Glad I'm not a lone nut job then swimming against the tide.

    yes I suspect Isonoes might work quite well for me. I think Technics own plinths would be hard to beat actually. I will still mess with plinths in the future because I'm after a 12" arm on it so would need to try something bigger. Tempted to cut the plinth and widen it, pin it and infill with resin using a piece of Panzerholz for the bottom. Another idea I have is to use the existing one to make two moulds in plaster of Paris, then cut and shut them together in the right places so I can cast a wider and deeper resin/stone plinth.

    I'm enjoying trying different carts out on the deck at the moment and the deck is really singing just now. Well pleased with it.
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  13. #73
    Moderator dom_'s Avatar
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    To help your footfall problems fordy have you thought about a Townshend rack? Mine worked wonders with wooden floorboards and stopped the problem dead. The whole rack being isolated is very handy and saves all those bits and bobs you need at the moment under your deck.
    My current place has a concrete floor now, but the Townshend still sounded better than the deck sitting on a traditional stand with isolaton; atacama with sorbothane feet under the deck.

  14. #74
    Nippon Wammer fordy's Avatar
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    Sounds like I need to find a Townshend dealer in Japan! Cheers
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    Fordy.....I would'nt butcher the plinth just to fit a 12 inch arm if I were you.
    These plinths are very good ,as you are finding out , a few negative comments on the internet are by people with a vested interest .....cottage industry types working in their back shed making wooden plinths or from people trying to justify an expensive purchase of one......most would not have even compared them properly to the original plinth.

    If you feel the need for a 12 inch arm try one of the Kuzma models , Ref 313 VTA and 4 point will fit on the technics plinth as they have a spindle to pivot distance of 212mm.

    The Technics SL-1000MK2 consists of SP-10MK2 turntable ,SH-10B3 plinth and EPA-100 tonearm.
    Matsushita corporation /Technics employ real engineers , the design of the whole package is excellent........I suggest as you are in Japan that you keep looking on Japanese yahoo auctions for a second hand Technics EPA-100 tonearm , it is an excellent performing arm and of course it is designed to be the perfect match with the plinth and TT.
    If you want something really special try to get hold of the Technics EPA-100MK2

  16. #76
    Nippon Wammer fordy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SP10 View Post
    If you feel the need for a 12 inch arm try one of the Kuzma models , Ref 313 VTA and 4 point will fit on the technics plinth as they have a spindle to pivot distance of 212mm.
    A 12" arm will have a spindle to pivot of around 300mm give or take... think about it.

    I read on VA that someone was actually succesful in mounting an SME3012 arm on the SH-B3 plinth. The armboard needs to be as wide as you can get it and they had to make some very minor mods to the back corner underneath for clearance.

    http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable...2d5e1f24f8f8e5

    I think an Jelco SA-750LB 12 incher might be a better bet as the Spindle to Pivot distance is only 290mm and the mounting base is not as big. It might just squeeze in without modification hopefully. Would have to ditch the lid though probably. Anyway I will find out soon. 750LB on it's way
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  17. #77
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    The Kuzma ref313 vta and Kuzma 4 point work differently.
    They are 12 inch arms specifically designed to fit standard 9 inch tonearm mount distances....
    Arm length is 313mm....but mounting distance , spindle to pivot is 212mm.

    http://cms.kuzma.si/AmplioCMS2/publi...US#menuId=1169

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by SP10 View Post
    The Kuzma ref313 vta and Kuzma 4 point work differently.
    They are 12 inch arms specifically designed to fit standard 9 inch tonearm mount distances....
    Arm length is 313mm....but mounting distance , spindle to pivot is 212mm.

    http://cms.kuzma.si/AmplioCMS2/publi...US#menuId=1169
    Spindle to pivot is as you'd expect for a 12" arm, it's the mounting point which is different. They're not necessarily the same (although for most arms they are.)
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  19. #79
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    Correct , yes.....the mounting point is the same as for most 9 inch arms .
    But they are a 12 inch arm , with an effective length of 313mm.

    These two 12 inch tonearms were specifically designed for people.... like fordy , ...who want a 12 inch tonearm but don't have the plinth size accomodate one....which is why I suggested them.

  20. #80
    Price Discovery Bitch i_should_coco's Avatar
    Join Date
     Sep 2006
    Posts
     20,561
    Real Name
     Coco-san
    Turn Table
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    T/Arm & Cart
     AN Arm-3/Io Ltd.
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     AN S9/DIY LCR
    Digital Source 1
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    In the Hi-Fi industry?
     No
    yep and I think the Kuzma arms are superb.
    CD players - computer audio for dummies.

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