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  1. #41
    moor tuga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky raccoon View Post
    there's a lot less 'air' and 'space' to things (and this is really what distinguishes 'stereo system' from 'hi fi system' for me).
    "Air" usually results for an exageration of the top octave (indeed quite fashionable among high-end speakers) and "space" usually comes from that, too wide dispersion at MF and HF and room (mostly side-wall) reflections (it means your listening spot is located too far from the speakers).

    Quote Originally Posted by rocky raccoon View Post
    Talk about hot seat. Minute differences in speaker toe-in / distance from rear wall suddenly make the difference between a centered center or a lop sided soundstage. And it's the same for my head. It was this issue that caused me to re-arrange the acoustic treatment in the first place for this experiment. If you don't have a similar array of treatment on both sides - or absence of treatment - the stereo goes lop-sided/out the window. I'm not used this advanced level of finnickyness and I'm not into it.
    This proves you were seating too far from the real hot spot and over 50%(?) of the sound you heard was made up of room reflections.
    It appears you are finally listening to your speakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by rocky raccoon View Post
    where did the 'depth' go ? I swear - on many recordings - things happen behind the rear wall. With the long wall set-up - it's all fixed in the plane between the speakers - however well spaced. This is really bad news because the left/right imaging was pretty damned good before - with an added depth that made the whole thing really spectacular
    Your "depth" was room generated.

    R
    Last edited by tuga; 23-05-2012 at 10:25 PM. Reason: typo
    "...man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but usually manages to pick himself up, walk over or around it, and carry on." - Winston Churchill

  2. #42
    Wammer rocky raccoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuga View Post
    "Air" usually results for an exageration of the top octave (indeed quite fashionable among high-end speakers) and "space" usually comes from that, too wide dispersion at MF and HF and room (mostly side-wall) reflections (it means your listening spot is located too far from the speakers).



    This proves you were seating too far from the real hot spot and over 50%(?) of the sound you heard was made up of room reflections.
    It appears you are finally listening to your speakers.



    Your "depth" was room generated.

    R
    Man - I honestly don't know.

    I don't think that the speakers have a tilted tonal balance. I hate sound reproduction which is tonally bent. I also have a pair of mint BC1's with the coles super-tweeters and I listen to ATC active 100's regularly - and they both pretty much rule the roost as far as neutrality goes in my (admittedly limited) experience.

    I was after tonal neutrality when I couldn't afford it. Now I've got it I want a soundscape detached from the speakers with air and space and life that I can just close my eyes and 'be there'. And I've got that too. It makes the hairs on my arms stand up. I just think that I can do better.

    I attribute the failings of my experiment to the room - and I have heard these speakers in better rooms. They just don't like being close to walls. And in this particular situation (with panels at the side reflection points) they give their best on the back wall with a yard behind them and not with the side walls at 2 yards but a foot from the rear wall.

    I've just put everything back (nothing blew up - again thank god) and it's the best compromise in my particular room. For whatever reason - it sounds pretty damned good ! I've heard the particular advantages of the long wall approach and I think I know how to get the best of everything. It's called a bigger room.

    Time to find a barn & get cracking with Autocad.
    The retrospectroscope - the most powerful tool in science.

  3. #43
    Cock with Aspergers ncdrawl's Avatar
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    you always want them firing down the long side..
    Be just and if you can't be just, be arbitrary- William S. Burroughs

  4. #44
    Super Wammer awkwardbydesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncdrawl View Post
    you always want them firing down the long side..
    Sadly some of us have no choice, and have to make the best of it. I am in the middle of lining the wall/ceiling corners with superchunks, and they have to be hidden. Like large coving, with lighted niches for the clock and ornaments. Just hope it works!

  5. #45
    moor tuga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncdrawl View Post
    you always want them firing down the long side..
    ...and sit far from the back wall but never in the exact center (vertically and horizontally) of the room:

    "...man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but usually manages to pick himself up, walk over or around it, and carry on." - Winston Churchill

  6. #46
    moor tuga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky raccoon View Post
    Man - I honestly don't know.

    I don't think that the speakers have a tilted tonal balance. I hate sound reproduction which is tonally bent. I also have a pair of mint BC1's with the coles super-tweeters and I listen to ATC active 100's regularly - and they both pretty much rule the roost as far as neutrality goes in my (admittedly limited) experience.

    I was after tonal neutrality when I couldn't afford it. Now I've got it I want a soundscape detached from the speakers with air and space and life that I can just close my eyes and 'be there'. And I've got that too. It makes the hairs on my arms stand up. I just think that I can do better.

    I attribute the failings of my experiment to the room - and I have heard these speakers in better rooms. They just don't like being close to walls. And in this particular situation (with panels at the side reflection points) they give their best on the back wall with a yard behind them and not with the side walls at 2 yards but a foot from the rear wall.

    I've just put everything back (nothing blew up - again thank god) and it's the best compromise in my particular room. For whatever reason - it sounds pretty damned good ! I've heard the particular advantages of the long wall approach and I think I know how to get the best of everything. It's called a bigger room.

    Time to find a barn & get cracking with Autocad.
    How far away are you from the speakers (and how close to the back wall)?
    Have you tried to postion your chair such as to form the tip of an isosceles triangle with your speakers and point them at your shoulders?
    You won't need more than 2 metres (don't know how many yards...) - see previous post.

    Cheers,
    Ric
    "...man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but usually manages to pick himself up, walk over or around it, and carry on." - Winston Churchill

  7. #47
    Super Wammer nomismo's Avatar
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    You gotta get yer seating right.
    Quote Originally Posted by kernow View Post
    I keep coming into this thread expecting useful tips on speaker positioning

  8. #48
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    I must admit to having tried the 38% speaker placement before...from memory i think the web page was cardass???? this was with Audio Physic Tempo 1s and Ditton 66s, both speakers were set up on axis about 2.5 to 3 meters away (slightly bigger room than above). I must admit, I didn't enjoy the experience, the APs were cracking speakers, very detailed and a great soundstage etc...but jeez, move your head an inch and the whole sound picture just fell apart, was like wearing headphones. My current speaks are close to the back wall, well off axis (which suits these old Tannoys), slight toe in and my listening position about a quater in from the rear wall (just in front of the "standing" bass wave). measured responce at this listening position is very good for this type of speaker, very close to the on axis 1m measurement, but a deeper off axis bass responce.

    My advice, play around, you will know when you get the positioning right. Get a mate around to move them for you while you sit and direct, wont take more than an hour to get it right.

    I have a curtain behind the speakers and a large vinyl storage rack behind the seating position, carpeted room with 2 seet settee.

  9. #49
    Super Wammer nomismo's Avatar
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    CRIKEY...With them in my room i'd loose any musical concentration,i'd have to find them or the hifi another room.
    Quote Originally Posted by kernow View Post

  10. #50
    Depression Vortex kernow's Avatar
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    The fibreglass hoods on them used to fart along with a certain bass frequency a year or so ago but I must have moved something because it doesn't happen anymore. I feel the current room layout is a good compromise though
    If you're reading a thread I've created it's probably to do with something breaking or not going to plan again.

  11. #51
    Wammer rocky raccoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuga View Post
    How far away are you from the speakers (and how close to the back wall)?
    Have you tried to postion your chair such as to form the tip of an isosceles triangle with your speakers and point them at your shoulders?
    You won't need more than 2 metres (don't know how many yards...) - see previous post.

    Cheers,
    Ric
    Tuga
    speaks are about a yard from the back wall. Seating position is close (too close) to the back wall. It's this line of inquiry I'm going to pursue - with something that is laid back - and slide-aroundable.
    The retrospectroscope - the most powerful tool in science.

  12. #52
    moor tuga's Avatar
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    After reading Genelec's advice on positioning I experimented (and measured) with different box-to-wall distances and my findings (see this thread) coincided with theirs:


    This means that your speakers should go back around 40 cm.

    My listening spot is right between the sofa and the TV so I put a small chair into place and move the sofa sideways whenever I'm listening:


    Cheers,
    R
    "...man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but usually manages to pick himself up, walk over or around it, and carry on." - Winston Churchill

  13. #53
    Super Wammer nomismo's Avatar
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    I agree. i only have one wall where i can place the speakers, so i have to make the best i can, also the room is only 3.6m x 3.7m.I do have a loft room i purposely constructed 2 yrs ago to put all my kit in this being 3.7m x 8.5m unfortunatly 2 of my sons moved their kit in quicker than i could.Still one day when they leave (how long do sons live with their parents before moving out now adays)
    Quote Originally Posted by awkwardbydesign View Post
    Sadly some of us have no choice, and have to make the best of it. I am in the middle of lining the wall/ceiling corners with superchunks, and they have to be hidden. Like large coving, with lighted niches for the clock and ornaments. Just hope it works!

  14. #54
    Entropy magnet baltika_no_9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuga View Post
    My listening spot is right between the sofa and the TV so I put a small chair into place and move the sofa sideways whenever I'm listening:


    Cheers,
    R
    Oh a Harry Bertoia chair, lovely.
    Hey, don't the wars come easy
    Hey, don't the peace come hard

  15. #55
    Super Wammer awkwardbydesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomismo View Post
    I agree. i only have one wall where i can place the speakers, so i have to make the best i can, also the room is only 3.6m x 3.7m.I do have a loft room i purposely constructed 2 yrs ago to put all my kit in this being 3.7m x 8.5m unfortunatly 2 of my sons moved their kit in quicker than i could.Still one day when they leave (how long do sons live with their parents before moving out now adays)
    But they come back!

  16. #56
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    Well that was woth getting off my fat arse and trying, just moved the speaks to within 10cm off the rear wall, placing the divers at 50cm (from 50cm and 1m) and the bass has just got a tad deeper and crisper all round....tip top advice that.

  17. #57
    Super Dooper Wammer JANDL100's Avatar
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    I prefer speakers against the long wall.

    IME speakers sound best with space to the sides. I am sometimes tempted to do it t'other way around, but that never lasts long and I always revert.

  18. #58
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    Shaun ...never mind the speakers - what are those spaceships doing in your listening room?

    PS speakers on long wall every time for me.

  19. #59
    Depression Vortex kernow's Avatar
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    Ssh they're in disguise I plan a mission to venus by the end of the year.
    If you're reading a thread I've created it's probably to do with something breaking or not going to plan again.

  20. #60
    Cock with Aspergers ncdrawl's Avatar
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    the 38 percent rule comes from ethan winers page, Mr. Bob
    Be just and if you can't be just, be arbitrary- William S. Burroughs

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