solidsblog: handsome small speakers and other stuff...

[SSM]

Jimmy Moff wrote:

Funny you should say that Solid because with the cash from selling my ProAcs I bought the Spendors and a Meridian 506 cd playerwhich hasthe chunkiesttray I've ever seen. That reminds me to update my profile.

As for classical music, I'm actually listening to Beethoven's 9th at the moment but I haven't added anything to my collection for ages. I'll have a look in the Classical forum to see if I can pick up some suggestions because I really enjoy the smallselection of cds that I dohave.

By the way, I've just been reading yourmoratorium onthe Creek Evo amp. Nice write up! I'm consideringthe Evoto go in a system in my study room with eithera Naim or Rega cd player (and probably some Rega speakers but I'm not sure about this yet).

Jim

My. You've been busy chipping and changing too, Jim.

May I ask what is it you mainly do in your study? The EVO is a beat-driven amp, a worthy alternative to the Nait5i. If you are planning to have it make the music while you are doing work on the desk you could be distracted by its addictive rhythmic timing and not get anything done at all. You may also accidentally cook your accounts book with the increased happiness.

I am also considering owning a Creek again through the improved EVO2. It has added a main-in option this time. Fed with a tubed X-CAN preamp, this could turn out to be a £1k hybrid combo that performs above its station. Desires, endless desires...

If you are demoing Rega speakers, I'd be interested to hear your views on the new RS1 if it comes your way. I am intrigued by its classic Mission standmount driver-arrangement.

Schubert was hot in the Cabin last year. You need to add his 9th Symphony to LvB's if you haven't already.


cheerSS

[Jimmy Moff]

My daughter and I use the study for doing our respective homeworks in. I must admit though, the room is mainly used by me for listening to music when thefemale members of my family are watching TV in the living room .

I already have two pairs of Rega floorstanding speakers. Some Ela 1.5s and some Alyas. I'll probably sell the Elas and keep the Alyas to be honest, simply because the Elas should be easier to sell.

I have not yet heard theRS1s but I have listened to the older R1s, which I liked very much.All the Rega speakers that I have heard have had an exciting forward balance and tight tuneful bass with absolutely no flab. I love their soundbut I wouldn't call them neutral. I bet the RS1s or R1s would be a good match for the C326 BEE.

Thanks for the Schubert recomendation. I have no Schubert whatsoever at the moment

Jim

[SSM]

lol! Another victim of the women-&-TV syndrome. Just what is with this tv affliction of the female sex?!! It even cuts across species. I have two dogs. The male one doesn't understand TV images and prefers to chew on his toys. The female one, she does see the images and can sit still watching movies with me.

Your description of the Rega sound chimes with my pre-conception of what it would sound like based on the looks of the drivers. Seems Rega is a bit 1990s Mission-y: taut and pacy, with little overhang. I think it may do jazz ensembles nicely.


^ Neat and tidy looks. It passes the Messenger test and is HFC's 2009 speaker winner. I'd better check this out this year too. It could save me a small wad of cash over a Spendor.


SS


ps: the latest Schubert 9th tawk starts at post #3115 in the Cabin:sorry:

[lexi]

I've been appreciating the qualities of small speakers again myself. A pair of Wharfedale C Series with ceramic tweeter and8" bass/midsit in front of unplugged 15" Tannoy ATM.

On good stands they are refreshing with such clarity and pinpoint imaging and a very sweet yet impressive treble. Adequate bass really......ok drum kit not quite as impressive as the thunderous Tannoysbut some details do sound sweeter and precise. I sometime just wonder if that is the "smaller" soundstage with this type of speaker. Whatever the reason, it is there.

I don`t miss much of the Tannoy as yetunless you want to go larger than life (fun)so to speak. Yes small speakers are great for just listening to music......I think that's what it's supposed to be about ? All this applies to a smallish listening room of course.

[SSM]

Hallo Lexi. Fancy seeing you here!

You just raised the points that highlight the mysterious appeal of small standmounts to us fanciers in this segment in the speaker market. Compared to floorers, with all ponderous bass damped out of the way, they are just more mellifluous and crisper in expression, as if the unnecessary bits in the music have been excised away. I have owned four floorstanders but none gave me as much pleasure as the several mini monitors I'd used.

Underrated Wharfie has a number of decent speakers in its resume. Had the Diamond 8.2 and played with the 9.1 I prefer W's implementation of Kevlar woofers with soft dome tweeters to B&W's Kevs with metal domes. The sound is more cohesive, if comparatively unassuming next to B&W's DM series.


cheerSS

ps: every thing else is better than Tannoy IMO:green:
pps: AM has forgone his Doha title defense and ranking points to give himself a better chance at the AO crown. Fat blightish hope...

[lexi]

Hiya

You seem in good form ATB for the coming year

[roll_with_it]

Good to see things have perked up here in the small speaker thread

I've once again returned to the small speaker club, and for the first time become a Dynadude

For a few months, due to a bass issue in my 4x4m square(ish)room,i've been trying various cables (with thanks to AlanB), and also altering my room acoustics which has helped a great deal. I managed to get the DALIs sounding much better.

I did however also try a pair of Neat Momentum 3i stand-mounters, and I really liked the extra detail (especially in the treble) and airy clarity that these brought. Superb speakers they are, but unfortunately, despite the fact they are a stand-mount design, the bass on some recordings was just too much for my room, and over powered everything else. I tried various speaker stands which helped tighten the bass, but it wasnt enough. The Neats IMO should be used in a bigger room.

So here I am with the Dynaudio Audience 52 SE, better than I could have imagined from such a small box. They'rebetter suited to my room, and anice match for my valve amp. They have great levels of detail across the frequency range, they're very lifelike. I've also noticed they do the whole soundstaging thing very well. The main thing though, is they don't add anything specific to the sound i.e. forceful midrange, overpowering bass - instead they let the musical flow naturally, and very accurately.

Good start to 2010

[SSM]

Congrats Rollie. Every audiophool needs to have a Dyn chapter in their life story somewhere.

The 52SE is one of Dynaudio's classics. Its woofer is the proper minimal size for a Dyn standmount designed to punch sub-40Hz frequencies without impacting on the midrange. The ones trying to do that with a 13cm cone have a tall order to fill. I am just amazed that you are driving your 52SE with a valve amp, though. Hope that is letting through all of the 52SE's timing abilities.

So welcome to the Dynadood club!
I bequeath you my old badge.

(Remember to shut the lights off when it's your turn to leave.)


cheerSS:green:

[roll_with_it]

Cheers solid,

You mentioned timing abilities - it was one of the first things that struck me with the Dyns, they're very fast, probably the best i've had to be honest. The Melody amp is a top end integrated with plenty of power on tap, so no issues there

The matching stands (Audience 4?) are very good as well. Pics to follow

[SSM]

ATC SCM11 Two-way Passive Loudspeakers
(preceded at solidschateau by Dali Ikon 6, to be succeeded by bigger ATCs in the future)


The Four Horsemen
Feb 2009. After a year of ribbon-tweetered trebly music from my Dali Ikons, some of it teethering on the precipice of sibiliance, I decided it was time for a new speaker adventure. The final choice was narrowed down to four options - Spendor S3/5R & SA1, ATC SCM11 and Dynaudio Excite X16. The X16 had several things going for it : its moniker had the magical letter 'X' and its charcoal-grey baffle with silver trim is nicely metrosexual. Although it is from a Dyn range below the Focus 110 I had, I found it to be better balanced. The larger woofer dissipates deep bass more evenly than the 110's small cone and there is also more to be heard from the midrange. Had it been around when I first looked at Dynaudio in 2007, I daresay it would still be in service at my domicile today. Unfortunately, the SCM11 demo followed on its heels through the same amp Roksan Caspian M-1 amp (85W, 50amps current) and next to that the X16 sounded like it had a veil thrown over its midrange. The SCM11 is much more revealing and defined.

More serious opposition to the ATC came from the Spendor standmounts. The S3/5R is languid while the SA1 is swifter but both had a midrange presentation that is as unveiled as the SCM11's but more liquid, crystalline and flowing. And in the SA1's case it was dangerously hypnotic. I had to remind myself that the incoming speaker was to replace the floorstanding Dalis in my main system and I would certainly need a subwoofer partner for either Spendor. For low-end clout the SCM11 held all the aces and so it got the gig. This is not the end of Spendor for me though. A year later now I am considering getting one for the bedroom system.

This SCM11 has got my name on it in two big ways:

(i) the founder of ATC is a good old Aussie boy, and...
(ii) the graphite material that is used to create the front baffle is the same stuff used in pro tennis racquets! SQUEEE!!! No wonder I felt an inexplicable spiritual bond with the baffle when I first saw and touched it.


Build Quality

The SCM11 may be under nine kilograms each but it handles like a fearsomely heavy block of granite. Heaven help you if you should drop it on your foot whilst heaving it into place on the stands, its hard edges could chop a toe off! One of the best-built standmounts I've had so far. It is also replete with a raft of proprietary ATC design features, nothing is included here which doesn't contribute to sound optimisation. The binding terminals are rugged too and accept 4mm plugs comfortably.

Power Issues

Like a couple of other brands, ATC is beset with the same myths concerning its power requirements. I once read a chat on another forum where a person asked for amp recommendations for an ATC standmount and someone said "you need at least 100W, but to be safe you should look for 200W". Do these advice givers ever actually have hands-on experience? IME you are not going to require an amp greater than 100W to obtain listenable big sounds out of the SCM11 unless you intend to make yourself deaf or have a stadium-sized listening room. The smallest amp I have is the NAD C326 and it delivers more juice than I need. I'd say this £330 50W NAD represents the basic minimum, but it needs to be noted that it can deliver 100W into 8 ohms for dynamic peaks (NB: some budget amps may not deliver the same peak figures.) So, >50W continuous and 100W dynamic into 8 ohms is quite serviceable for the SCM11, IMO.

Of more importance is the nature of the partnering amplification. For my tastes I find the SCM11 a bit daunting with transistor-y amps. Its tweeters are neutral yet explicit, having no sweetened-up niceties like Leema's or Dynaudio's. So amps from the attacking up-front school of PRaT like the showroom's Roksan Caspian or my Creek EVO, can make the SCM11 too intense during treble-rich music. This is why I'm having second thoughts about partnering them with a Rotel RA-1520 or Nait XS, given Droodzilla's recent comments that the treble he gets from his Naim and SCM7 setup could be more refined. I don't have a problem with uncouth high frequences when feeding the SCM11 from a tubed preamp circuit like my MF X-T100 hybrid integrated, or the X-CAN v8P into NAD C326. Here the treble is airy, even creamy, and the tubes help the SCM11 carve out a spacious soundstage with greater depth. I definitely prefer ATC with some valves upstream.

Performance

These speakers have been around for a year and I am very familiar with all their good and bad points now. Let's do the baddies first.

I am still unable to pick out any house sound to ATC. This SCM11 is simply the most neutral and uncoloured loudspeaker I have ever used. I can only point out performance traits. In this case, the SCM11 is very revealing across its entire frequency spectrum, especially the midrange. It does not come with static phase plugs in the middle of its woofers, it is armed with midrange domes and they really open up the midband and make even the subtlest sounds audible. No wonder this is a favoured brand in pro studios where sound engineers need to hear all that is going on in the recordings. It literally bombards you with lavish details from familiar music you thought you knew like the back of your hand.

The downside to this extremely high resolution is, of course, not every genre of music can be enjoyed when all the technical blotches in the recording process are cruelly exposed. Particularly badly-aspected are vintage opera recordings from the 60s and rock music from the 70s, like the Beatles and the Eagles. All the analogue tape hiss and bad joins are underlined by the SCM11. I could even hear differences in ambience within single tracks revealing the recording wasn't done in the same session. The relentless spotlight on these minutiae impede your perception of the music's sense of line or flow. I miss the almost easy-listening approach of my Dyn Focus 110 in this instance. They did not reproduce the many fine details but their buttery rich nature makes it so easy to just sit back with a beer and soak in the vibes of the Eagles.

While it is certainly impressive and powerful with modern rock and disco albums, I do not think the SCM11 is the best standmount option for these music genres. This is again due to their very detailed presentation that opens up rock recordings like a scalpel. The SCM11 makes me hear this music as a mass of steely electronic noises first whereas the bass-driven Dyn Focus 110 made me feel and enjoy the beats first and foremost. The Dyn approach is instinctual whereas the ATC is cerebral and analytical. Don't get me wrong, the SCM11 can deliver all the excitement embedded in a Rammstein or Lady Gaga track too but if your entire music collection consists of such bright-ish, edgy music, and you listen to it 24/7 through the ATC, its presentation can make you weary of the souped-up production techniques common to this genre.

My non-audiophool Friday poker mates like a bit of rock music and they had chances to play their favourite tracks through my Dyn Focus 110 and ATC SCM11. The unanimous preference was for the Dyn presentation while the ATC was looked on with a mix of incredulity and shock. Resolution-wise, it is an advanced alien species compared to their rubbish car-speakers. And herein lies the crux of the ATC's appeal: the listener either likes the incredible resolution on offer, or deems it too much of a good thing that gets in the way of musical enjoyment. You will know within the first hour whether you can swim or sink with this kind of sound. In my case, it was like a duck taking to water.

The SCM11 can be thrilling with solo voices when the recordings' engineering permits. Singers are reproduced very cleanly and often affectingly too given the ATC's attention to detail. However the SCM11 doesn't caress or put the human voice on a pedestal as much as my Leema Xeros or the Spendor standmounts. These L3/5a inspired monitors have a more silky quality in the midrange that wrings out all expressive nuances. They also know how to spotlight the voice. With the Xeros, singers seem to take a step forward relative to the other instruments in the mix. The SCM11 is more democratic in its treatment of singers, they stay in the mix with the rest of the musicians. While I reckon this is just their neutrality at work here, this presentation may be construed as a diminution of emotional immediacy by audiophiles in the market for for 'voice' speakers.

Baroque and classical chamber music are evenly reproduced by the ATCs with the requisite fidelity. Unfortunately they come after my preceding speakers Dali Ikon 6. These Danes were so damn amazing in this repertoire. This could be a case of the SCM11's 80.5dB sensitivity pitted against the Ikon 6's 90.5dB. The Ikon 6's lightning fast response to the rapid string bowing and scurrying tempi characteristic in baroque, particularly Vivaldi, is simply exhilarating and utterly idiomatic. Oddly enough, despite having one pair of woofers to the Ikon 6's two, the SCM11 sounds weightier at all times when playing baroque and chamber. Still it represents a step down in idiomacy within this genre. These days I listen to baroque and chamber less after swapping Dali for ATC. Oh well, not a great loss. Baroque is classical music's cartoon.:green:


Into the SCM11's fortress of glories...

The musical inclinations of the boss of an audio brand can often be reflected in the tuning of its products. Musical Fidelity components have a sauve way of protraying woodwind instruments thanks to its clarinet-tootling boss. With the ATC boss, the favoured instrument is reportedly the piano. I did not bring a single piano recording to the demo, so I was taken by surprise later by the SCM11's superb reproduction of the piano. It is close to perfect in tone and power and completely kills the efforts of every previous speaker I have used. In this instance, the SCM11's almost neurotic attention to detail and superb command of dynamics make every piano recording come to life very vividly. The clatter of forcibly struck hammers interspersed with the complex reverberations of fading chords and the woody thuds of the keys - these are all marshalled expertly into a unified tapestry of sound without any element overriding another. Sheer mastery!

The piano has always been my least favourite instrument but through the SCM11 even piano sonatas turn into mini symphonic utterances. ATC loves the ivories! Even when a piano plays a soft backing role in jazz music, my attention is drawn to it. It sounds so good and lifelike. Needless to say, my collection of piano music has grown significantly over the past year.

Pianistic glory aside, I am in awe of these ATCs for something else - its ability to reproduce full romantic symphonies. It does so well in this one distinction that I can overlook its deference in other music genres to my previous speakers. This SCM11 has the unflinching power, detail and scale to make every symphony listening session a stirring experience. The high resolution ATC sound that can be a liability with bright-ish rock and pop is a total boon here. It gives shape to softer sounds from distant back row musicians and imparts definition to complex layers of orchestration. Bruckner's symphonies which I had dismissed as glutinous in texture were opened up and revealed as musical cords of tightly woven themes that undulate and push against one another like tectonic plates.

It is quite easy to make a speaker that is engaging with three-minute pop songs, the engineer just needs to add hot zones to the treble and bass for increased excitement. It is another thing for a speaker to hold the listener's attention for the entire duration of a complex 20+ minute single symphonic movement where the music is all concentrated in the midband. I often found myself nodding off midways when I had Dyns and Dalis doing Bruckner. With the ATC it is all rapt attention. Its midrange domes truly open up and illuminate orchestral textures.

The other reason for the SCM11's prowess with symphonic music is its bass performance. This is a sealed box design and its bass notes start and stop with phenomenal precision. There is no 'ooo' overhang from a port, however subtle. One often hears of an adjective like 'transparent' to describe midrange performance, well this ATC is the first speaker I've come across where that adjective can apply to the bass. This clarity enhances its communication skills. An example is Rimsky-Korsakov's Capriccio espagnol (LPO, Jansons). At the end of the second Alborada the orchestra plays two loud tuttis. Through the Dyn Focus 110 (rear-ported) and Dali Ikon 6 (front-ported) those tuttis slam with maximum impact. Both notes have the same force and volume. Through the sealed SCM11 the first tutti has less pressure than the second final one and because of the bass clarity and low resonance, it is possible to hear how Jansons is deliberately reining the orchestra back before letting loose with the final tutti. What a tantalising split-second of suspense! Because of the sharp difference in pressure between the two notes, the second tutti is more overwhelming and cathartic when the ATC lets it out, even though it doesn't plunge as deep as the Dyn or Dali. The latter two are exciting in a visceral way, the ATC is intensely exciting in a cerebral way as it gave a flash of insight into the conductor's intentions. In many other instances, the ATC's iron-clad control also highlighted other conductors' subtle use of rubato undetected by my previous speakers. Magnificently talented.

So therein lies the reason why ATC is my final destination. The speakers that impressed me the most last year were this SCM11 and the two Spendors and what they all had in common is their sealed box design. To my ears, the instruments that appear in the bass region sound more authentic and real through them. I had been side-grading between several very good speaker brands the past four years without actually knowing the true reason why. Now I do. Ported bass designs just don't do it for me anymore.

The SCM11 will be around at solidschateau for a while yet until the time comes for me to demo the SCM19. I hear it is the first entry ATC to incorporate the company's Super Linear Magnet system in the main driver that offers lower distortion. Given the SCM11's super clean midrange sound, I wonder how much better it can get with the SCM19?

But file that away under KIV Moneypenny, I have many more listening sessions with the SCM11 to revel in.

[line]


The mighty SCM11... anything but fruity

: superbly clean, detailed and neutral
: excellent dynamics and scale
: bass is powerful and musically revealing at the same time
: lacks the effortless fluidity of several L3/5A-inspired monitors
: its very revealing presentation does not suit certain genres of music
: requires an amp with adequate power reserves to do justice to its dynamism

[line]

[oldfogey]

An interesting summary of the approach to sound from ATC speakers, though you decry the idea of a "house" sound. One thing you do not mention is imaging, the review is all tonal and detailing. While this is also my bias, and hence my happiness with ATC for many years, I have been wakened to imaging and the presence it gives musicians in music through speakers by both my Neat MFS and, more by the Nathans. I haven't heard the SCM11's. How would you describe their soundstage and imaging?

[SSM]

oldfogey wrote:

How would you describe their soundstage and imaging?

Very stable. The musicians stay securely locked in their positions on the soundstage during heavily built-up passages and climaxes.

One thing the SCM11 don't do as well as the Leema Xeros (or Spendor SA1) is the holographic projection of solo singers. It is quite neutral in this regard, whereas I noted mag measurements citing slight hot zones in the presence band for the Xero and SA1, hence their greater intimacy in presenting singers in close-up. Having voluptuous tubes upstream helps pouff up the SCM11's imaging but I am content with its selection of talents already. I hand it the heavy-duty big scale works to reproduce while I let the Xeros do the intimate cooing. It seems you are doing the same with your split systems. The frequency responses of your other speakers could be tailored differently. Can one find precise neutrality and winsome euphony hand in hand in one box? Probably have to pay the earth for that.


SS

[lexi]

I`ve let the side down Solid The big Tannoys are back on. Listening to the superbly recorded GM "Faith" and then Anouar Brahem`s Astounding eyes of Rita were the reason.

The vocals and timing of that punchy and soulful sound was so precise on that recording of Georges that The Tannoy put you in there. No paunchy loose bass here....recording is spot on with that flat attack that DC's give you and bass you feel in the chest.It`s why some peeps cannot get on with Tannoy. They show it like it ison poor recordings of sloppy over equ. bassand do not tone it down like the smaller transducers.

The atmosphere on the Brahem CD is immense and the horn loaded HF unit seems to givehis instrument such an ethereal spread of soundstage. Accoustic guitarssoo good on these.I think the big Tannoy says "here it is...... if it`s shite then that`s the recording. The smaller speakers seem to be more of a facsimile that is not as offensive when the recording is not great. I speak of contemporary and pop here.

Take a simple track like Brubeck, Take 5 on a Tannoy15". the drums cymbal pianobass and horn........all in beautiful balanced proportion andTHATDRUM SOUND with all that space aint heard it bettered........... That is a Big Speaker track



The usual hi -fi bollox appliesas this is all in MY room with the gear and ears I have..and of course the easiest person to fool is oneself....

[SSM]

Oi Scotchie, read the AUP. No celebration of big-boned speakers here.


Whatever floats your boat. Tannoy really are wardrobe specialists, you have to given them that. Their standmount lineup has never managed to elicit any interest from me, nor its dual concentric implementation. The Sensys DC1 was one of the most boring speakers I have ever heard. Not helping it in anyway at all are the minging ergonomics.


^ inbred fugliness:green:


YMMV


SS

[lexi]

Oi Scotchie, read the AUP. No celebration of big-boned speakers here

Scuse me......I was only comparing the comparison

Those things above aint Tannoys.............any more than a Freelander is a proper Land Rover No Tannerd would give them earwax room

Those look like the companys response to people who take their kids to McDonalds for Sunday dinner.

I`ll dig out some small classic speakers for further review on your lovely ickle speaker thread

[SSM]

Be my guest. Anything goes so long as it isn't from the bell-bottom era and if you leave out all Gaelic slangs. (Hmm, actually I think a Gaelicked write-up would be more unique and artistic, hint)

[line]I'm headed south tomorrow to check out new storespace to rent and the Sonus Faber dealer is nearby. Finally, S-F offers a standmount to my liking...



^ the TOY! At 26 cm high, it is 1 cm taller than my Xeros, which makes it a bit humongous. But it still has a cutie cutie cutie shape!

This could be a good time to see if Italian monitors can sing as well as Blighty's finest. I'll take some opera CDs along.


SS

[roll_with_it]

Have to agree about the small Tannoys you mentioned Solid. I temporarily used the centre speaker in my AV system once, and it sounded like it had a king size duvet wrapped around it.

[SSM]

roll_with_it wrote:

Have to agree about the small Tannoys you mentioned Solid. I temporarily used the centre speaker in my AV system once, and it sounded like it had a king size duvet wrapped around it.

Was it that bad? Or did you unknowingly wire your amp's sub-out terminals to it?

btw best not to spray cologne or air-freshener in the same room as the 52SE. The airborne scents could accelerate the corrosion process on the precious exposed wires around the Dyn tweeters.

cheerSS:sorry:

[roll_with_it]

SSM wrote:

roll_with_it wrote:

Have to agree about the small Tannoys you mentioned Solid. I temporarily used the centre speaker in my AV system once, and it sounded like it had a king size duvet wrapped around it.

Was it that bad? Or did you unknowingly wire your amp's sub-out terminals to it?Nah, I was exaggerating, but only a little. To be fair though, it was the lower model (without the seperate tweeter thingy on top).

btw best not to spray cologne or air-freshener in the same room as the 52SE. The airborne scents could accelerate the corrosion process on the precious exposed wires around the Dyn tweeters.I will bare that in mind! Have to say, it is one damn fine tweeter

cheerSS:sorry:

[roll_with_it]

Solid, as en ex Dynadude, thought you might appreciate these clips

1

2

3

Enjoy