Re set tracking weight on EKOS SE/1 tonearm

[Ron.P]

There aren't too many people on this forum that believe that accuracy in Azimuth, SRA, VTA, VTF are that important, as I believe you will see respond to this post. The Ekos SE is unable to accurately dial in these parameters.

That's why there's chocolate and vanilla.

 

[Mr Kandid]

I think too many adjustments make for a really compromised setup to be compensated for.
If the engineering is up to snuff then the fudging and faffing shouldn't be necessary.
IMO

 

[ThomasOK]

There aren't too many people on this forum that believe that accuracy in Azimuth, SRA, VTA, VTF are that important, as I believe you will see respond to this post. The Ekos SE is unable to accurately dial in these parameters.

Time to beat the dead horse yet again, eh? Well, I suppose it has been a while.

I think you'll find that most on this forum feel that VTF and VTA are important, as this thread indicates despite you thinking the opposite. Arms that allow you to separately adjust SRA from VTA are very few and far between and are fundamentally flawed in regards to solidity. Otherwise you are adjusting both together so it makes little sense to single them out. VTF and VTA/SRA are best adjusted by ear, just like everything else, and anyone who feels comfortable adjusting an arm can get the best out of any Ekos by adjusting and listening, just as is needed with any other arm. There is nothing that keeps an Ekos SE from having these parameters adjusted properly if you know what you are doing and can hear.

As to the dead horse, I have addressed this more than once but for the benefit of newcomers your only hope of proper azimuth is if the cartridge and arm are made properly. Otherwise all you can do is align one improperly made part by misaligning another part. Any system that allows azimuth adjustment on a gimbal bearing arm reduces rigidity and allows for additional resonances, a compromise Linn are unwilling to make. Azimuth adjustment really only makes sense on arms there the pivot design is free to move in that dimension such as unipivots and your beloved WTA. Those arms will change their azimuth depending on the weight of the cartridge so they NEED azimuth adjustment to allow you to get the cartridge level.

 

[Nopiano]

not owning an EKOS SE arm I did not realize that it functions entirely different from most tonearms, as to setting the tracking weight. After reading the later responses it 'turned the light on' as far as what you were talking about. Continuing to learn the ways of Linn.

If you’re as old as me you may remember the Dual turntables from Germany, and BIC from the USA were amongst those which also used spring applied tracking force. Very effective it was too.

 

[ThomasOK]

If you’re as old as me you may remember the Dual turntables from Germany, and BIC from the USA were amongst those which also used spring applied tracking force. Very effective it was too.

Yes, dialed in tracking weight using a calibrated spring has been around a long time and used by a number of companies. Empire Scientific in the US had dynamically balanced arms using the method back in the 60s and Rega arms from the RB300 series on up all use the method but with a twist. The Ittok LVII, the first Linn designed arm, used this method which they borrowed from the Swiss made Breuer arm they imported into the UK, originally for PMS Aktiv Isobarik systems. All Ittok and Ekos arms have used dynamic balance with spring applied tracking force.

There are a few inexpensive tables that use dynamically balanced arms even now. A "side benefit" of a dynamically balanced arm is that it can actually track a record sideways or even upside down if you can figure out how to keep the record and platter in place. Dual used to like to show the ability to play a record sideways. There are a couple of turntables on the market designed to be mounted with the record/platter surface vertical and these use dynamically balanced arms of necessity. Obviously the coolness factor is the driving force here as the loads on the main bearing and record contact with the platter will be less than ideal.

 

[rjinaz86323]

If you’re as old as me you may remember the Dual turntables from Germany,

Yup. Used a Dual 1229 for many years.

 

[Mr Kandid]

I remember them in shops playing vertically.

 

[Nopiano]

I remember them in shops playing vertically.

Yes, in my part-time retail days I’d lift one side of the plinth while it continued to play perfectly. It reassured customers it didn’t really need too much care with levelling!

 

[Moomintroll]

Yes, in my part-time retail days I’d lift one side of the plinth while it continued to play perfectly. It reassured customers it didn’t really need too much care with levelling!

They obviously sorted out the anti-skating…

’troll

 

[Ron.P]

Yes, in my part-time retail days I’d lift one side of the plinth while it continued to play perfectly. It reassured customers it didn’t really need too much care with levelling!

To me, the vertical record players seemed like an answer to a question nobody was asking.

 

[Nopiano]

They obviously sorted out the anti-skating…

’troll

Yes, that was a spring too iirc. As long as one didn’t jerk the whole assembly, it would easily play at quite extreme inclinations. Propped on a pile of books, at around 45 degrees it would also cue perfectly out of and into a ‘groove’ without missing its place - quite a party trick!

 

[Nopiano]

To me, the vertical record players seemed like an answer to a question nobody was asking.

That’s true. I agree, I can’t really see the point.

What I was recalling was the impressive demonstration that the arm was very well balanced in each plane, regardless of angle.

 

[Wenge1]

It is the best way because the arm/cartridge sounds best dialed to 1.75 grams with Krystal and Kandid but balancing out the arm first will leave you actually tracking higher than that. For reasons unknown just dialing it to where a digital scale reads 1.75 is not as musical as having the dial at 1.75 even if the tracking force is actually higher. But then using the counterweight to have it actually track at 1.75 grams improves musical perfromance a bit further.

Anti-skating with an SE1 will be the same or very close to the same setting as the tracking force. With Ekos 1, 2 and most original SE the anti-skating will be better at about 2.05 grams. The tracking force setting method mentioned above is also applicable to the Ekos 1, 2 and SE. It is not needed with the Ittok.

On the Ekstatik I find 2.1 grams TF most musical and 2.05 on anti-skating.

Thomas, have you by any chance tried this method on non-Linn carts such those from Lyra?

 

[Daveyf]

Time to beat the dead horse yet again, eh? Well, I suppose it has been a while.

I think you'll find that most on this forum feel that VTF and VTA are important, as this thread indicates despite you thinking the opposite. Arms that allow you to separately adjust SRA from VTA are very few and far between and are fundamentally flawed in regards to solidity. Otherwise you are adjusting both together so it makes little sense to single them out. VTF and VTA/SRA are best adjusted by ear, just like everything else, and anyone who feels comfortable adjusting an arm can get the best out of any Ekos by adjusting and listening, just as is needed with any other arm. There is nothing that keeps an Ekos SE from having these parameters adjusted properly if you know what you are doing and can hear.

As to the dead horse, I have addressed this more than once but for the benefit of newcomers your only hope of proper azimuth is if the cartridge and arm are made properly. Otherwise all you can do is align one improperly made part by misaligning another part. Any system that allows azimuth adjustment on a gimbal bearing arm reduces rigidity and allows for additional resonances, a compromise Linn are unwilling to make. Azimuth adjustment really only makes sense on arms there the pivot design is free to move in that dimension such as unipivots and your beloved WTA. Those arms will change their azimuth depending on the weight of the cartridge so they NEED azimuth adjustment to allow you to get the cartridge level.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. If you look at some of the Uber arms that are available today, all of them allow precise adjustment of azimuth, VTF, VTA and SRA…but you are going to tell us that these very arms don’t sound as great as the Ekos SE…

 

[Moomintroll]

Can we get back on topic, please? Or has this thread run its course?

’troll

 

[ACS]

The last time that I checked, the measured tracking weight agreed exactly with the 1.75gm setting on the dial.

 

[Moomintroll]

The last time that I checked, the measured tracking weight agreed exactly with the 1.75gm setting on the dial.

That suggests your dealer set it up in the way we have described. (Ignore the next sentence, I confused @ACS with the original post. Doh!) Why do you now feel a need to reset it, if it still measures 1.75g?

’troll

 

[ACS]

That suggests your dealer set it up in the way we have described.

’troll

Not so 'troll. The (well known) dealer removed the counterweight and set the dials to zero prior to me taking the deck home. I set the arm up myself after I'd mounted the deck.

 

[Moomintroll]

Not so 'troll. The (well known) dealer removed the counterweight and set the dials to zero prior to me taking the deck home. I set the arm up myself after I'd mounted the deck.

So which method did you use?

’troll

 

[ACS]

So which method did you use?

’troll

Set tracking weight and anti-skate dials to zero. Move the counterweight until the arm balances out parallel to the top plate. Place the arm in the armrest, then apply tracking weight and anti-skate with the dials. Simples.