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MGTOW last won the day on June 12 2019

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    Poole, Dorset
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    Dave Wiley

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    Bluesound Node 2i
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    Adam Artist 6. Activ
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  1. Yes and no, mostly yes. The classical recording industry is certainly more 'considerate' of the performance but it is often just as 'unrealistc', multiple mics, compression and all the rest. Even the best 'concert performances' will be messed with is some ways, fading up soloists is a bugbear of mine, the ECM issues you mention are not entirely absent from classical recordings.
  2. MGTOW

    Stacked speakers

    Regarding the 57s, we drove ours with I or 2 Nap 160 power amps in a 'normal' sized front room with the speakers in front of a bay window with closed curtains. We had been experimenting with the 57s a fair bit at that time, working on rigid stands and alignment, removing and adjusting internal damping, that kind of thing. All good fun at the time but the results we got from a single pair of tweaked 57s was seriously good, better than the stacked units we thought. Stacking 2 pairs of modded units would have been interesting, but not ours to mod so never happened. A. R-A's system was very familiar to me, it had its limitations on very large scale orchestral and did not like heavily 'produced' rock and pop of any kind. More than just an 'opera system' though, classic jazz (60s mostly) was as good as I have heard. Amusingly, Tiefenbrun used to claim that the speaker alignment was 'inspired' by the Linn Isobarik
  3. MGTOW

    Stacked speakers

    Back in the day we had frames for stacking 2 pairs of ELS57s, should have worked better than they did really, a little heftier in the bass and a touch louder (we used separate power amps for each pair) but barely worth the effort we thought. Mark Levinson customised a stacked pair with a wide dispersion ribbon tweeter (Decca Kelly?) and subwoofers, reputably very good but I never heard them. Something I did hear that I thought quite excellent in most respects was a setup using two pairs of ELS63s in an unusual configuration, one of the best soundstages I ever heard, fantastic on voice too.
  4. A bit late to this discussion. First thought. As regular music lovers we are very much in the hands of the music producers (record companies if you like), their product is a two channel re-creation of a three dimensional musical event and so, to my way of thinking the 'original performance' is the recording 'as mastered', no other definition makes sense. There are many different ways of reproducing this music and it appears that in modern hi-fi terms, this is largely a matter of taste. Personally I like the sound reproduced in a certain way that I enjoy and I guess that most on here are pretty much the same. To believe that there is any degree of 'accuracy' involved, is, for most of us ridiculous, the scale, bandwidth and dynamic range are rarely, if ever, produced in a home environment, so we adapt and modify the playback in various ways that suits us. That's pretty much it, you are listening to an artificial construct as if it is real, it isn't, play it in a way that gets you the most out of it.
  5. Rubbing speakers coils. If this is the issue, then this is what you. Double check that you have none of the other issues mentioned above, remove the driver and check for unglued surround, dustcap and centre dome, also check that the braids are not touching or dry jointed. Sounds complicated but really little more than a visual inspection. If this shows there are no issues then you need to get the driver out of the box, use a phone or similar and find frequency generator, preferably one that goes down to at least 10 hz. Play it through your amp and connect direct to the speaker driver, set frequency to around 30-40 hz. and the volume so that you can easily see and hear the cone movement. Whilst keeping the cone movement sensible, reduce the frequency step by step, it will be obvious when the cone is rubbing. Turn the volume low but not so low that you can not hear the rubbing. With the cone facing up, push gently down on the frame of the driver, use two fingers on opposite sides, say, 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock, then 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock, etc, etc. Push gently but firmly on the frame and the noise from the rubbing coil will alter as you gently distort the frame, with a bit of luck you will find a point where the rubbing noise stops completely. Mark the points on the frame where this occurs. When you refit the drivers, use shims, or washers (if they close to fixing holes) under the frame at 90 degrees from the marks where you pushed on the frame and bolt in place as usual. The shims/washers will 'pre-distort' the frame slightly, re-aligning the coil in the gap, assuming no real damage to the coil, this is a serious longterm fix. Actually much easier to do than to describe, as you work through the process, each step becomes obvious as you do it.
  6. MGTOW

    Klipsch Heresy 4

    Re Pricing. One thing not mentioned is the marketing/sales strategy of the company concerned. It revolves around 'trade' and 'export' pricing. For a lot of US hi-fi companies the home market is comfortably their biggest, in order to do well their pricing needs to be competitive, so the manufacturer has to set (US) trade prices according. This may well mean that there is no leeway to offer an export price that is below the local trade price, and in case of shipping from the US to the UK, that is very often the case. Look at the reverse business, for some UK companies the US, and export markets in general, are far greater than the home UK market, so product is priced quite high in the UK with export prices being substantially lower than UK trade. Given the relatively low taxes in the US, some UK product was available in the US for the same price, sometimes less, than in its home market, given so much production is now in China, this is easily achieved.
  7. and fled. I totally understand your reactions, I hear exactly the same as you both in the various circumstances I describe in my earlier post. I hate to be tedious but the levels need to be carefully matched and ideally switched blind. This is boring I know and in most cases very difficult to organise in practice but in my experience very important, accurate level matching being crucial.
  8. That is a very common reaction that many people have to using attenuators. Given their simplicity and that there is no measurable effect on anything that should alter SQ, I wonder what's going on. I guess that the amplifier might 'sound different' depending on how much gain it is providing but surely that would be obvious in other ways. I have experienced similar effects with pre-power combos where the power amp has level controls and can be turned down so that there is a more sensible range on the pre amp volume. It sounds better with the power amp turned full and the pre-amp turned down. Personally I think this is a psycho-acoustic effect, our brain is convinced, given the low volume setting on the pre-amp it really should be 'just a little louder' and that causes the listener to turn it up a notch and as we all know, louder sounds better! I have seen this effect many times over the years, power amps as described above, in line attenuators, pre-amps with variable input sensitivity on individual inputs etc. In all cases the amplifier sounded better 'unattenuated', even though there was often no reason for that to be the case.
  9. MGTOW

    Speaker sensitivity

    This . It is unfortunate that many systems have way too much gain. Given that 2 volts minimum is now the defacto standard for (digital) line level sources many amplifiers have inputs that are far too sensitive. This means that the level increases very quickly as the volume control is turned up and the amplifiers reaches full output and is clipping badly well before the control is half way. Amplifier manufacturers know this but they also know that many buyers think that amplifiers that get loud very quickly must be very powerful and tend to buy them in preference to amps that have more usable rang on the volume control. Ie. A 50 wpc amplifier might go from 0 to 50 watts by turning the volume from 7 o'clock to 11 o'clock whereas another might need to go from 7 o'clock to 3 o'clock. They are both 50 wpc amps, though the second example has a far more sensible range on the volume control it appears that buyers prefer the first option as the amplifier seems more powerfull.
  10. The Crown amplifiers are the obvious solution, solid reliable designs that pretty much do what they say. Measured performance is decent rather than spectacular and they are not 'voiced' to sound hi-fi, so very clean and neutral. As a well known brand they should also be easy to sell on should they not suit. PS> What will you use as a preamp? Other thoughts.. To all intents and purposes, turning up the bass on an amplifier has the same effect on power output as turning up the volume, virtually all the power is in the bass. Turning the bass control up by 3dB will very nearly double the power delivered by the amplifier. Overdriving speakers with big amplifiers is quite rare in my experience, clipping the amplifier is far more likely. Keeping sub bass, often mostly noise, out of the speakers is an excellent idea too if you want to play loud.
  11. As uzzy says above, having a good idea of what you are trying to achieve is pretty important but I get the impression that you are fairly new to this so very strongly suggest that if you have the opportunity to experiment then you should do so, you will learn a lot. As to choice of amplifier, a decent stereo power amp would be my choice, simple versatile and the least expensive option. Just to be clear, most mono blocks are built as such for size and weight reasons, there are other reasons for building amps as monos but when set against the extra chassis and construction costs, I am not that how worthwhile that is. As uzzy also says, the best performance, particularly when starting from scratch is simply the best power amplifiers you can afford, but that said, sometimes you just have to try these things for yourself.
  12. Vertical bi-amping and mono blocks are two different things, mono blocks have the advantages described by Bencat above but they are offset by the extra cost of building as two separate chassis. What I think you might be getting at are the options available when you have 2 separate stereo power amplifiers. Horizontal and vertical bi-amping options have been dealt with above, but other options are possible. You can simply use one channel of each amplifier to drive the speakers in the normal way. Depending on the design of the amplifier this may mean that the single channel you are using gets the benefit of using the whole of the power supply and is improved because of it. Not sure if that has much merit in practice. Some stereo power amplifiers can be switched to operate as a single/monoblock amplifier, usually of greater power. The most common way to do this is by reconfiguring the output of the two channels so that they combine to drive one speaker. This is most usually achieved by, in essence, connecting the speaker across the 'live' terminals on each channel, the rule is that you get 'twice the output into twice the impedance'. So a 50wpc 8 ohm power amp will drive 100 watts mono into 16 ohm, or perhaps if it is 80 wpc into 4 ohm it will drive 160 watts mono into 8 ohms. This is 'bridging' and is not uncommon, there may be other ways to combine two power amplifiers together, but I am not familiar with any. So you get a big power increase but there is a downside, minimum allowed speaker impedance is doubled too, so unless the power amp is stable into 2 ohm in its normal stereo form it will not drive a 4 ohm load when bridged. So, assuming a nice 8 ohm speaker, a 50wpc amplifier can either drive 50watts to bass and 50 watts to treble or, in the example above180 watts to the whole speaker when bridged.
  13. Your terminology is essentially correct and no, a single channel power amplifier can not 'bi-amp' anything. If you have two identical stereo power amplifiers, then there is no obvious advantage to either horizontal or vertical mode, all channels are driven by a full range signal so should behave in a similar manner. Should you wish to use different sounding amplifiers for, say, bass and treble then obviously this would be an example of horizontal bi-amping and is not uncommon. Bear in mind that we are talking about passive bi-amping here, all channels are driven full range by the same signal, the power of the system is the power of the least powerful amplifier as that will clip first, ie there no real power advantage in passive bi-amping. Active bi-amping, where the crossover comes before the power amp, at 'line level' and the power amplifiers drive the individual bass and treble units direct is a whole different subject.
  14. I think you are rather over egging the variation in source output levels, for most it is simply the difference between Dacs, which should output 2 volts (Red book) but is often much higher and built in phono stages where the gain is limited for noise reasons. The 2 volt Red book is the defacto standard for hifi, it should be formalised, it is not that different from pro standard at 1.775 volts. Level issues in pro audio usually revolve around semipro or 'prosumer' products that interface at much lower levels. XLR pin connections are confused because mic connections in Europe used pin 3 hot with pin 2 hot in the US. Some hardware manufactures chose to follow these standards hence the difference between US and European hardware that I remember from the 70s.
  15. Still lots of misunderstandings here. RMS power is not a particularly useful measure, even when accurate and consistently measured, used for comparison purposes as it is easily checked and compared. On the other hand, peak power clearly defines maximum output (clipping), recordings with any sort of dynamic range will have average (RMS) way below this as I described above. Good amplifiers, even driven up to clipping, should be able to handle the average power fine, but not so good amplifiers, how do they do? Sometimes not so well, power supply fluctuations mostly. Dacs/CD player have ridiculously high outputs, as indeed do some modern phono stages, but mostly they are lower output to control noise. The difference between something like a Chord Dac and an old school phono stage is huge, so you may have the dac set to 9 o'clock and the phono stage will need to be at 2 o'clock. This is just how they are designed. A few amps or preamps have adjustable input gain (trim) so you can wind down the dac volume to match, say, a phono stage. Strangely a lot of users will not use this facility, preferring the louder presentation.