DomT

We know very different average Joes then. An average Joe to me in this context is someone who wants to buy a hifi system but it’s not a hobby and they just want to buy some hifi. Plenty of people who meet this definition go to proper hifi shops and buy proper hifi equipment.

Good post. I agree with the first three paragraphs and we should never be thinking ‘tight bass’ we should be thinking bass player’s good. Am also not looking to have a punch up with Tuga. We are just coming at it from the far ends of the spectrum. 👍 I have a constant gripe that the hifi industry for every day people like me it’s almost impossible to get decent demos of decent turntables and the streaming side is incomprehensible at first glance. This is where I approached my discussion from. It seems that Tuga has technical knowledge and experience so it’s easy for him. This isn’t sailing and shouldn’t be as difficult for people like me. I’ll shut up now.

Are you suggesting that buying the wrong hifi eg Naim could result in death? (Clearly a mistake in sailing or gliding could be fatal. Mind you listening to certain music on certain systems could lead to suicide (maybe) But actually the last time I checked there is no requirement for training prior to buying a boat and using it.

You are miscategorising the hifi market. You are not talking about the entire marketplace. For example hifi to me isn’t a hobby. I don’t spend a lot of time on it. I have only been on a hifi forum for a few months because I wanted to buy a streamer that I didn’t understand. It seemed fair to help others whilst I was being helped. I am not an audiophile. I know a lot of people with hifi systems the same as me. They buy a system and forget about it and none are on a hifi forum. Nobody goes on training to buy any other consumer item (ok there maybe one or two people). You have an elitist attitude. Buying hifi should be more accessible and if it was more people would buy it and prices would come down.

And the other problem with using trained users is that who is going to pay these people to assess every new product? Nobody. So as in many other sectors we rely on actual owners/users as their voice is most valuable. That’s why I bought blind a Quad 909 and a Luxman DA100 on here recently because other users recommended them. I trusted their opinion even though I believe that they are all untrained listeners.

You have misunderstood the analogy and unfortunately research methodology. If an F1 driver assesses a BMW 3 series he will pull the car apart and find a huge amount of faults with it from a driving perspective. The average user will find far fewer faults with the car. The average person on the street will find more benefit from the average user feedback and not the F1 driver feedback. Hopefully you understand this distinction. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5037948/ This will help you understand why untrained users are fine to use.

So are F1 drivers but what relevance does that have to someone who wants to buy a BMW 3 series?

We posted at the same time. Please read my post and the conclusion from the study “There are clear visual correlations between listeners' loudspeaker preferences and the set of frequency graphs.“ what counts is the user opinion as it’s users who do the buying. Users come on here for the opinion of (mostly) untrained users. If the one or two ‘trained’ users are the only valid voice then let’s close the forum!

You are misunderstanding the science of research. Buyers of hifi equipment are not trained listeners. You therefore don’t need trained listeners. That’s why I gave you examples with numbers. Mans now that I have read your links it’s interesting that the links that you posted state that in conclusion “There are clear visual correlations between listeners' loudspeaker preferences and the set of frequency graphs.“ I rest my case.

Have we not already learned that the P3ESR always wins in any competition? Yours AS

Tuga and just to add that the onus should not be all on the manufacturer. I believe that the big gap in audio is the lack of meaningful user data and preferences. If 900 out of 1000 people say that amp XYZ is warm sounding factually it is warm sounding because it is a statistically valid number of people making the judgement. if on the other hand 59 out of 60 people say that amp XYZ is warm sounding the size number of people is too low to be statistically valid but a user could still find this useful. Currently we only have the manufacturers marketing info that may or may not state this characteristic (for the typical user) or for the technical minded people there may or may not be technical data that describes whether the sound is warm or not. Making hifi buying decisions should be easier than it is. To use a car analogy I don't need to know how the engine of the car works to know if it will be suitable for my needs but it seems to me that in the hifi world you do currently need to know this level of info according to some to make the right choice. Given that the majority don't have this inclination or ability it seems to be the wrong approach.

what if a person's wife was a dog?

Hi Tuga lots to respond to but to keep it simple look at the car industry. Plenty of stats in terms of things like warranty claims. BMW are near bottom of the list and yet perceived a quality car manufacturer; their cars in the immediate short term are one of the worst although might be better than others in the long term. Not all buyers are scientists or great with technical subjects. So a simplification of some measures using language that the manufacturers themselves use is a good idea. If a manufacturer says that their amp is warm or smooth then a measure understood by the majority not the few to back this up would be useful. Consumers can then choose if they want to put warm with warm or less warm with warm etc. Totally get your point about internet variables butbtjat is exactly the wrong way to look at it. software in hifi systems should be designed to work for everyone not just those who understand how to buy and want to buy a non-isp router. Auralic recommend that their customers don’t use an isp router. This is totally wrong. So a measure that says ‘no matter what your internet set up at home does it work reliably’ is a good measure. I would buy reliability over better sonics but much less reliable operation.

The measurements that I would be interested in reading would include the following and I believe are not available anywhere are below. Everything is measurable just takes interest methodology and willingness. I’m so many ways the hifi industry is way behind other sectors. 1. Long term Customer Satisfaction 2. Percentage faults raised under warranty period 3. For internet connected products day to day operational stability (based on both manufacturers data and user data equivalent to mpg for cars ie lab vs real world) 4. Musical satisfaction rating (based on users) 5. Tonal richness (manufacturer info and user info) 6. Brightness/forwardness (manufacturer info and user info) 7. And others that I can’t think of right now

Just to add that I didn’t know that Meridian invented Roon. Those Meridian people have been busy inventing some interesting stuff. Shame I don’t like their actual products though.