£1500 speakers for a large'ish room

Sparks

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A few years ago I ditched all my 80's consumer entry level hifi gear for what I thought was going to bring me into the 21st century.

I'm hearing music that I played in the 80's on my cheap'ish  technics system & wharfedale speakers on my now supposedly better system... better amp, better speakers,  but to me it sounds pretty much the same only louder with a bit less distortion at higher listening levels.

I didn't just blindly buy the first bits of kit I read about, I did research... I read a lot of stuff. Admittedly I didn't know about this place nor did I get advice from elsewhere. I started with what was considered a decent amp at the time what was within my budget, a Marantz PM7005. I wanted to play music from various sources including digital... The fact that I could plug my laptop in and play content from my network was a real plus. This is also great for party's. I play my stuff through  winamp and have milkdrop visualisations playing on the projector which is a real crowd pleaser. I've also recently added a Rega Planer P2 to my set up for all my old 80's Vinyl.

I know we all have different ears and people will say it depends on what your taste is and what kind of presentation you're looking for. I'll be honest and say I'm not entirely sure what audiophiles mean by bright, forward, soundstage etc.. Is there a dictionary with definitions of audiophile terminology? Now I've said it I shall google it.

I think the reason I'm disappointed in what I hear and what I've purchased is down to a) the size of the room where I listen to music,  and b) the speakers I bought. My room was built by the previous owner for a antique snooker table he had. The room measures 26ft x 18ft with 10ft high ceilings. My speakers are Kef Q700's and I think this is where it mainly falls down. I actually took the time to try out various speakers at  Superfi where they have a listening room. I tried 4 different types before I decided on these. I now see that the problem was that their listening room was tiny compared with where I have them now. I think this is where I need start and to rethink the set up to be able to fill the room with decent sound. Don't get me wrong, I like the speakers, they're ok'ish but I don't think they're good enough for the room size.

So I'm looking to upgrade the speakers first, which is a difficult task when you've no idea what they're going to sound like in the room with the equipment I have until I've made the purchase... and I don't really want to go through the faff of having a "home trial" like what the Premium Sound store offer. I've also read about room conditioning ... reflection, absorption, diffusion etc... but she who must be obeyed would never allow that.

I haven't got a ton of cash under the mattress so the sky limit is out of reach for me. I'm looking to spend in the region of £1500.. (the missus doesn't know this). Does anyone here have a similar sized room with similar priced speakers that they are content with? And I also realise there are better amp's and amp set ups but I can't afford to do it all at the same time.

I've spent the last couple of weeks trawling the interwebs for what's out there... I haven't discounted older speakers but the ones I keep coming back to are the Klipsch RP800F's and the Dali Oberon 9's. Any thoughts or experience on these?

And the one of the reasons I came here because through my research I read a piece by Esquire that made me laugh out loud:

" It's the audiophile's biggest fear, isn't it?" grins James, the immensely affable founder of HiFi Wigwam, an online forum that begat the show. "They die and then their wives sell their hi-fi equipment for what they told them it cost".
haha I get that. And my missus has no idea what I'm up to right now either.

I've attached a couple of pics of my room to show the layout.. again this is how it must be according to "she who must be obeyed". And to be fair because of the snooker table this does seem to be the most logical location.

Apologies for the long ass post but I'm trying not to make the same mistake twice. And I realise there is no "best" or "one size fits all" I'm just trying to make an informed decision.

1.jpg

2.jpg

 

Bodgit

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Pair of Mk I ATC SCM40s might fit the bill, if you can get them for your budget. Was a pair going for £1600 on eBay recently.

 

Gonepostal

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Looks like a great room. I won't answer your questions as there are plenty here with more knowledge than me. I will say that if they are LPs under the table they shouldn't be stacked like that. Anyway, good luck. 

 

Bodgit

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They look like beasts! And I see they were talked about here a couple of years ago. Thanks for the suggestion.
What's pictured on that post are what the OP got to replace the SCM40s...

SCM40s are three way floorstanding speakers, 

37053759234_985f4ba530_b.jpg


 

Sparks

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Looks like a great room. I won't answer your questions as there are plenty here with more knowledge than me. I will say that if they are LPs under the table they shouldn't be stacked like that. Anyway, good luck. 
Yeah you're right... I'm in the process of building something to store my vinyl, but that's no excuse - Sorted :)

4.jpg

 

Shakey_Studioincar

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What a lovely room!

I find it astonishing the your Mrs will allow a MASSIVE snooker table but wouldn't let a few decorate treatment panels fly. If I got home with a snooker table, I'd have to record it on my phone as the reaction would be priceless. 

Anyway. I'm going to advise something slightly different. Save the spend for a little while and lets move your current kit around. Although none of it is to my personal taste it isn't bad equipment and should yield a half decent (at least) sound in your room. I get the gist you're looking for sound to fill the room rather than "sound stage" and "depth" and other gubbins.. My personal opinion would be to move those speakers straight away, they're too close. Try them either side of the patio doors, let them load with the corners/wall and fill the room with sound then see what you think? 

I don't see any reason for now to spend money to get a half decent sound. No treatment for now, just a shift around. Treatment would definitely be my next suggestion, no passive speaker that exists will correct anything wrong with the room. 

Hope this helps,

Carl.

 

Sparks

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I'm going to advise something slightly different.....
Thanks Carl, I'll try that when I get time and let you know what it sounds like as opposed to where they are now.

And the missus has tried on several occasions to persuade me to get rid of the snooker table... citing "what a lovely lounge it would make" (we have a separate tv lounge), but I've dug my heals in and told her it ain't happening.

 

CnoEvil

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This Glossary should help: https://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html

My thoughts on your situation would be:

1. Do you enjoy the general sound you are getting  - or does it sound a little uncomfortable on the ears when turned up ie a little bright and edgy?

2. Could the room acoustics be causing a problem ie. A little reflective. Some rugs and soft furnishings could help here

3. Is that a suspended wooden floor - if so isolating the speakers from it would be a big help

3. If buying new, speakers giving copious bass for £1500 is a big ask

4. One option to consider is a Sub

So, from my perspective, you have various courses of action:

i) Try to get your speakers working right in that room

ii) If you get your existing speakers sounding OK, but need more scale - consider a Sub, from the likes of Bk.

iii) If your speakers can't be got to sound right, then look at changing them. If the room is a little reflective, don't go for speakers that are a little bright and forward. Whatever you do get would needs to be tried in situ.

What other speakers did you hear at RS?

 
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hiesteem

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That is a beautiful room. I agree with the advice you are getting about staying with what you have got for now.  This is where you have an opportunity to learn far more about how an audio system works together and how it interacts with your room. 

As you move your speakers around, ie away or closer to walls, pulling them away from each other,  will create a soundstage. 

This can be fun as you experiment and listen to the changes.  There is often a triangle effect, ie, position your listening chair at the point of the triangle with the two speakers the same distance apart completing the triangle.

You can then experiment with toeing in the speakers and moving them away from the walls a bit at a time. As has been mentioned, your room looks lively with bare wooden floorboards.  Carpet and soft furnishings help dampen the acoustics which will bounce off the walls and floor. This often needs to be tamed and gives a more solid musical presentation. 

It is a nicely balanced system you have got there, and personally I would spend time tuning it to your taste and if you still feel you want to make some changes, you will have more idea of how you want to develop your system. 

 
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I agree that you'll never get a room filling sound with any speakers in that position. You're going to have to shift things around a bit. Tricky as the pool table needs space around it. Perhaps put the speakers at the end of the room and use a listening chair you can move easily.

 

newlash09

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Lovely room there...I envy you :D

The quickest and easiest fix will be adding a sub as already correctly suggested by @CnoEvil

Then move your speakers to the corners to get better room gain, so they sound louder. All the best sir :)

 

newlash09

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I also forgot to add that the speakers should be fine at high volumes too. I suspect it is the marantz that is unable to drive them to high volumes with out distortion. If the marantz has pre amp outputs , I would seriously consider a high power, but efficient crown pro amp to drive the speakers real clean. For a room of that size, we really need a ballsy amp me think :)

 
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Sparks

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That is so insightful. Thank you. I also found this after posting: Audiophile Terminology Guide Which although new to me all kinda makes sense.

1. Do you enjoy the general sound you are getting  - or does it sound a little uncomfortable on the ears when turned up ie a little bright and edgy?

3. Is that a suspended wooden floor - if so isolating the speakers from it would be a big help

What other speakers did you hear at RS?
1. Yes, sort of, it's not uncomfortable... I just want.. more. Problem is I don't know what more is or how to explain it. Reading through all my new found terminology I think what I'm after is a bigger  soundstage. I'd like to be surrounded by the music, not just having it come from one area of the room which is what it sounds like now.

3. They are floorboards on joists.

I can't honestly remember the other speakers I listened to. I just know (to my ears) the Kef's sounded the best. And it didn't even cross my mind to add a sub... I didn't realise I could do it with this amp. So now I'm googling how to connect a sub with an integrated amp that has no dedicated sub connection. Now I'm learning  B|

I forgot to mention that we sometimes watch sky TV and stuff through Plex on the projector screen on the same side wall. I'm going to be limited to where I can move them around if we want to keep the audio coming from the same direction as the screen.

I agree with the advice you are getting about staying with what you have got for now.  This is where you have an opportunity to learn far more about how an audio system works together and how it interacts with your room.......
Everything in your post makes perfect sense. In a way I'm kinda glad it's generally thought the components that I do have aren't that bad. It's basically down to me to make them work better.

I agree that you'll never get a room filling sound with any speakers in that position. You're going to have to shift things around a bit. Tricky as the pool table needs space around it. Perhaps put the speakers at the end of the room and use a listening chair you can move easily.
I think I've go to try and somehow make them work on that side of the room. Not just for the sake of watching TV and films but when we do have a party (whenever that might happen again) my equipment needs to be semi out the way. At the last party we had I noticed a can of strongbow and jack daniels had been perched on top of one speaker!  :eek:  It's only ever happened once but it's now firmly engraved into the memory banks.

The quickest and easiest fix will be adding a sub as already correctly suggested by @CnoEvil

I also forgot to add that the speakers should be fine at high volumes too. I suspect it is the marantz that is unable to drive them to high volumes with out distortion. If the marantz has pre amp outputs , I would seriously consider a high power, but efficient crown pro amp to drive the speakers real clean. For a room of that size, we really need a ballsy amp me think
Definitely going to look into going down the sub route.

No pre-amps on this model Marantz. Just these:

pm7005.jpg

 

CnoEvil

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Thanks for the feedback.  My thoughts would be:

1. Soundstage is more about how the Speakers are set up....and where you sit.

2. You appear to have a suspended wooden floor - which usually screws with the Bass. IMV. Your first priority (along with moving the speakers about), is isolating the speakers from the floor. The best solution I know of, would be these: https://isoacoustics.com/products/gaia-series/gaia-i/

Sub Connection:

You can use a High Level Connection - explained here: https://www.the-home-cinema-guide.com/how-to-connect-a-subwoofer.html

BK Subs come with a High Level connection and Lead for doing so: 

eg. http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/XXLS400FF.htm

 
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Sparks

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I was just looking at the exact same thing after it was recommended earlier. I definitely think this is now my new preferred route.

Sub Connection:

You can use a High Level Connection - explained here: https://www.the-home-cinema-guide.com/how-to-connect-a-subwoofer.html
And again, I was just looking on how I would connect them without the sub connection... I need not have bothered, you've done all the work for me  :D

just so I get this clear in my head: I can connect to the high level inputs on the sub via the Neutrik Speakon connection which would result in the speakers and sub receiving the same signal, (I like that idea). But how would I connect it to my amp? Isn't that a 3 core cable?

You appear to have a suspended wooden floor - which usually screws with the Bass. IMV. Your first priority (along with moving the speakers about), is isolating the speakers from the floor. The best solution I know of, would be these: https://isoacoustics.com/products/gaia-series/gaia-i/
Woaaahh! They look the dogs doo dahs! I'd be tempted to buy one, take it apart and see what making duplicates would involve. Would a 2" concrete council slab cut into 3 do the job instead? I've got a few of those lying around.

 

CnoEvil

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Woaaahh! They look the dogs doo dahs! I'd be tempted to buy one, take it apart and see what making duplicates would involve. Would a 2" concrete council slab cut into 3 do the job instead? I've got a few of those lying around.
Buy 8, based on the weight of your speakers.  :D

...and No, a concrete block wouldn't be as good.

Other options would be something like Auralex Gramma (which I've used), or SubDude....but the Gaia would likely be better - and be a lot less than the £1500 you were looking to spend.

 

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