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Linn Owners

Degritter owners, anyone?

kryno

Nicolav
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Oct 22, 2018
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Nicola
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  1. No
A few days ago I bought the degritter, the cleanliness of the records is exemplary and the listening result after the treatment is surprising, beyond my expectations. Improved dynamics, more space between notes, never heard of details and better flow.

However, I am having trouble eliminating the crackles and pops that plague some vinyl. I bought these new vinyl records 30-35 years ago and I’m sure they didn’t have these flaws at the time.

I made several attempts to solve using the Degritter surfactant (1 ml) in the tank and the Art du Son applied manually on the vinyl and then in the Degritter with distilled water only.
With the Degritter surfer I did not get any results, while with LDS I got only a slight improvement.

I suppose the crackling and pops are due to very old dirt that has stuck tenaciously to the grooves because at a visual examination the vinyl looks perfect and shiny without any scratch. Besides, I’ve always used valuable cartridges over the years.

Someone who had a similar experience and maybe solved it?
 

 

sktn77a

Audio Dinosaur
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Nov 11, 2014
686
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NC, USA
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Keith
HiFi Trade?
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I think you might be right.  Some older record just have grit plowed into the vinyl over the years.

 
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HBerg

Newbie
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Oct 9, 2018
143
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33
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  1. No
Never tried US RCM , only conventional RCM as my VPI 17F. Still with used records looking less good they have very low noise after cleaning and clicks any pops are seldom heard.

Thought US cleaners should be even better but maybe you need both 🙂

 

Ben Webster

System doesn‘t matter - if you have mine
Wammer
Dec 16, 2019
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Frankfurt a.M. 🇩🇪
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
With my Keith Monks very dirty records sound noisy after the first cleaning cycle because some the dirt has loosened in the groove.

After one or two additional cleaning cycles the record should be clean.

 
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kryno

Nicolav
Wammer
Oct 22, 2018
124
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Nicola
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Groove damage can't be cleaned away..something to remember.
I know, but the grooves should not have been damaged, it seems more like a matter of nicotine dirt, inner sleeve card particles or dust.
I should inspect the grooves with the microscope to better understand...

 

kryno

Nicolav
Wammer
Oct 22, 2018
124
196
63
AKA
Nicola
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
With my Keith Monks very dirty records sound noisy after the first cleaning cycle because some the dirt has loosened in the groove.

After one or two additional cleaning cycles the record should be clean.
Not in my case, after several cleaning cicles the noise decreases but not significantly.

 

Daveyf

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Wammer
Oct 12, 2018
601
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San Diego
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I know, but the grooves should not have been damaged, it seems more like a matter of nicotine dirt, inner sleeve card particles or dust.
I should inspect the grooves with the microscope to better understand...
If you are buying used records, you have no idea as to how the record was treated in the past and how worn the stylus was that was playing. I have bought pristine looking vinyl in the past, and it was totally noisy due to groove damage. Like I said cleaning can only go so far...regardless of the method.

Also, if your records are 30+ years old and have been played numerous times, it is very possible that you now have groove wear ( either from a prior worn stylus, or just simply a large number of plays). 

One trick with groove damage is to use Gruv Glide and knock back some of the noise, but you will never get a totally pristine record.

 
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kryno

Nicolav
Wammer
Oct 22, 2018
124
196
63
AKA
Nicola
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
If you are buying used records, you have no idea as to how the record was treated in the past and how worn the stylus was that was playing. I have bought pristine looking vinyl in the past, and it was totally noisy due to groove damage. Like I said cleaning can only go so far...regardless of the method.

Also, if your records are 30+ years old and have been played numerous times, it is very possible that you now have groove wear ( either from a prior worn stylus, or just simply a large number of plays). 

One trick with groove damage is to use Gruv Glide and knock back some of the noise, but you will never get a totally pristine record.
I buy used records and I can understand that this problem can happen, but I don't understand how it can happen with my discs only used by me.

Groove wear? I have my doubts... and all the cartridges that used from 40 years to this part were all first level: Linn Karma, Asaka, Troika, Adikt, Kandid all with normal wear used with LP12 turntable, Ittok and Ekos arm.

The absurd thing is that these discs look immaculate and shiny. Hence the idea of using the microscope.

Maybe an enzyme-based product that can dissolve the stubborn dirt in the grooves might help? I was thinking of a product like this http://www.audiointelligent.com/products.htm

 
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Daveyf

Wammer
Wammer
Oct 12, 2018
601
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68
San Diego
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I buy used records and I can understand that this problem can happen, but I don't understand how it can happen with my discs only used by me.

Groove wear? I have my doubts... and all the cartridges that used from 40 years to this part were all first level: Linn Karma, Asaka, Troika, Adikt, Kandid all with normal wear used with LP12 turntable, Ittok and Ekos arm.

The absurd thing is that these discs look immaculate and shiny. Hence the idea of using the microscope.

Maybe an enzyme-based product that can dissolve the stubborn dirt in the grooves might help? I was thinking of a product like this http://www.audiointelligent.com/products.htm
If we remember that just one pass with a worn stylus can permanently damage the groove, I believe this can explain a lot.

Many times by the time we are aware that the stylus is worn, the damage is done. To that, we typically only hear groove damage once the record is played back with a pristine and resolving cartridge. There are numerous factors that can result in groove damage…even to this day, the way many records are delivered new has resulted in groove damage…and the record looking absolutely pristine!

 

kryno

Nicolav
Wammer
Oct 22, 2018
124
196
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AKA
Nicola
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
If we remember that just one pass with a worn stylus can permanently damage the groove, I believe this can explain a lot.

Many times by the time we are aware that the stylus is worn, the damage is done. To that, we typically only hear groove damage once the record is played back with a pristine and resolving cartridge. There are numerous factors that can result in groove damage…even to this day, the way many records are delivered new has resulted in groove damage…and the record looking absolutely pristine!
You’re right, but it’s not my case.

Though I don’t remember having worn-out stylus cartridges.

 

ThomasOK

LP12 Whisperer, Lejonklou importer
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Oct 19, 2018
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Thomas O'Keefe
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
Yes, I use the Audio Intelligent fluids and they are the best cleaning fluids I have tried, not that I have experience with all the various fluids out there.  I do not use a US cleaner - mine came from the UK. 😉  I have a Loricraft that I am very happy with and we sell the VPIs at the store so a number of customers are using them.  Everybody who has tried the AI fluids has stuck with them.  The #6 is a very good one-step cleaner.  What I use is their three step process with an enzyme cleaner, a detergent/alcohol cleaner and an ultra-pure water rinse.  It really does a very good job and I have verified to my satisfaction that the rinse stage is important to the resulting musical perfromance of the record.  There is also their #15 which is some kind of heavy duty enzyme cleaner that can be used with just a rinse but is also recommended as a pre-wash for heavily soiled records before the 3-step process.  A couple of my customers us it and they keep buying it even though it is the most expensive of the fluids but I have not tried it.  How you would use these in conjunction with a US cleaner I don't know unless you did one of the enzyme cleaners as a prewash before a dip in the US machine.

I am not a fastidious record cleaner and normally only clean noisy or dirty records.  But the tests I did of the AI fluids vs. L' Art du Son, VPI and a home made brew from a customer were with three new identical (as close as possible, but that's another story) audiophile pressings and they were improved by the 3 step cleaning compared to fresh out of the sleeve.

 

akamatsu

Sourcerer
Wammer Plus
Oct 9, 2018
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Point Roberts, WA (Vancouver)
AKA
Michael
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
How you would use these in conjunction with a US cleaner I don't know unless you did one of the enzyme cleaners as a prewash before a dip in the US machine.
I read the AI instructions. They specifically recommend against using their fluids with ultrasonic machines.

Edit: I now see that they do offer a fluid formulated for US cleaning machines.

 
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kryno

Nicolav
Wammer
Oct 22, 2018
124
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AKA
Nicola
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Maybe I found the answer I was looking for in the AIVS instructions.

Advanced Cleaning Procedures For New Records and Resale Records.

New records are some of the most polluted because of the release compounds contained in the record material that was forced to the surface during the record pressing process. If these records have a paper inner sleeve then the contamination is even more profound. The release compound is sticky and, over time, can start causing damage to the record surface. It will also collect and trap dust and other debris on the surface and in the grooves of the record. This is the primary cause of the ‘pops’ and ‘clicks’ that you hear during playback. We have performed laboratory testing on records that are more than 40 years old that still have excesses of these compounds on them. These substances can be difficult to remove without damaging the record or complicating the cleaning process. Some products that are effective at removing them can deposit other contaminants that are difficult to remove, and some can damage the record. Used resale records present another set of problems. There can be traces of release compounds still present on the record, and these compounds may have trapped a high quantity of contaminants over time. These contaminants can also become compacted into the grooves by playing the record when dirty. For proper sound reproduction, and to prevent damage to the record or to the stylus, this contamination should be removed. The directions detailed below will help insure that your records are safely and thoroughly cleaned and will give you a lifetime of enjoyment.

 
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