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Do I want to go Exakt?

Paulssurround

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I think you replied to the wrong post. You were questioning the OP's assertion of a 41 ms delay.

At 45 ms, the distance would be 50.79 feet, still within the adjustment range of the Oppo. But getting close to the limit.

:)
Thank you. 😊

My point is that the delay is variable and even if you set a particular value to 50.79 feet it doesn’t fully synchronize all the channels between Exakt and non-Exakt

When my friend did the calculation for me, he noted 57 feet for the distance entered for my OPPO, for my 45ms Exakt delay.

‘However, even with that, I was never able to get it to sound right for the centre and surround channels, as the Exakted Akubariks always lagged behind. This created an echo effect, with to Diana Krall’s singing, when there should only be one Diana Krall, or off beats on the drums.

Everything became synchronized when I went Exakt on all channels.   😊

 

akamatsu

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Thank you. 😊

My point is that the delay is variable and even if you set a particular value to 50.79 feet it doesn’t fully synchronize all the channels between Exakt and non-Exakt

When my friend did the calculation for me, he noted 57 feet for the distance entered for my OPPO, for my 45ms Exakt delay.

‘However, even with that, I was never able to get it to sound right for the centre and surround channels, as the Exakted Akubariks always lagged behind. This created an echo effect, with to Diana Krall’s singing, when there should only be one Diana Krall, or off beats on the drums.

Everything became synchronized when I went Exakt on all channels.   😊
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "the delay is variable."

I don't think that anyone here has a high degree of confidence that this will work well. However, I think I understand how the OP's system is currently set up, and what the intent with Exakt is. Since an Exaktbox is being borrowed, it is a chance to try and make it work. If it does, great, if not, the OP will know that a second Exaktbox set up for pass through will be needed. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

In your case, since the Exakted Akubariks always lagged behind, it seems that the fix would have been to reduce the lag by reducing the distance to the Akubariks as input to the Oppo. Your experience as described would be similar to the OP's situation. I think that your Akubariks lagged is promising as there isn't the limit to less delay as there is to more delay (60 ft.)

 

Paulssurround

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I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "the delay is variable."

I don't think that anyone here has a high degree of confidence that this will work well. However, I think I understand how the OP's system is currently set up, and what the intent with Exakt is. Since an Exaktbox is being borrowed, it is a chance to try and make it work. If it does, great, if not, the OP will know that a second Exaktbox set up for pass through will be needed. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

In your case, since the Exakted Akubariks always lagged behind, it seems that the fix would have been to reduce the lag by reducing the distance to the Akubariks as input to the Oppo. Your experience as described would be similar to the OP's situation. I think that your Akubariks lagged is promising as there isn't the limit to less delay as there is to more delay (60 ft.)
I’m not sure how many times I have to repeat myself?

I have had a lot of experience in this, and used this for a few years trying to synchronize all the channels with Exakt and non-Exakt.  It doesn’t work that well, by setting the distances in the OPPO, or fudging the distance from the Akubariks to the listening position.

‘Why don’t you hook up your non-Exakt centre channel speaker and some non-Exakt surround speakers from your home theatre with your OPPO and connect it with your Exakt Akubariks, and see how you do playing some 5.1 music and movies.

‘I look forward to your success 😊

 

aurelio

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Once again thanks a lot for all the input

so far i do understand that going Exakt should be pretty much straight forward, and that I can simply use the standard Espek filters to start with, even so I do have OW I tweeters. Don't know how much of a difference to the original tweeters it would make, but as I mentioned, I still have the original Espek tweeters and I could give them a try if I want to.

Exakt will be more detailed and revealing, maybe "clinical" and I am looking forward to hear if the pros outweigh the cons.

Still being able to listen to surround will be a challenge and might not work very well. I will give it a try and see how far I can get with the given settings options the Oppo has to offer.

so no need for further arguments on the delay. Once I have the setup ready I will see what I can do in my particular situation and then I will report.

 
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scallon

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I am intrigued that you have a 7.1 Linn Katalyst Surround System. Must sound amazing
Well only the Front and Centre are Katalyst, the surrounds are 520s and rears are non-Kat exakt Majik 109s. It probably sounds very similar to yours. I don't listen to multichannel music except for DVD and Bluray concerts and for those I am mainly drawn in by the picture and front soundstage.

I struggled for a long time to integrate Exakt Kabers with an analogue surround system when I first bought an AEDSM and EBox6. Believe me when I say I tried every possible variation of settings and configuration unsuccessfully before giving up and putting hard earned cash into all channels Exakt. There was no way I was going to go back to analogue Aktiv after hearing my Kabers Exakt!

 
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sunbeamgls

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Once again thanks a lot for all the input

so far i do understand that going Exakt should be pretty much straight forward, and that I can simply use the standard Espek filters to start with, even so I do have OW I tweeters. Don't know how much of a difference to the original tweeters it would make, but as I mentioned, I still have the original Espek tweeters and I could give them a try if I want to.

Exakt will be more detailed and revealing, maybe "clinical" and I am looking forward to hear if the pros outweigh the cons.

Still being able to listen to surround will be a challenge and might not work very well. I will give it a try and see how far I can get with the given settings options the Oppo has to offer.

so no need for further arguments on the delay. Once I have the setup ready I will see what I can do in my particular situation and then I will report.
The challenge with using standard filters with non-standard drivers is the impact of the driver relative volume levels and the corrections made by Exakt.

Driver volume levels: if the sensitivity of the non-standard drivers is different to the standard drivers then you will end up with the treble being too forward or too distant.  Even using the standard Linn drivers the bass driver is different between AV5140 and Espek and I recall this being a major change of performance between the 2 generations of the speaker, so assume that the Exakt filters and relative volume levels between the drivers could be different - a clue would be to check if AV5140 and Espek use the same analogue active cards.  If they use the same active cards then relative volume levels should be OK with Exakt, if they use different active cards then Exakt might introduce more problems than it solves.

The relevant parts of the corrections are two fold: phase and frequency.  Exakt applies a profile to the output of sound from the DAC that is the opposite of errors in the drivers.  So, as a crude example to illustrate the point, if there is a major +3dB hump in a driver at 2500Hz, Exakt will apply a -3dB hump to compensate leaving a flatish response.  Now, if the non-standard drivers have a -3dB dip 2500Hz and Exakt applies a -3dB dip at 2500Hz (because is is expecting a different driver profile) then you end up with a -6dB dip at 2500Hz - you've actually ended up with a worse result than if you weren't using Exakt.  The same can be said of phase errors too - you could be OK, or you could be ending up with compounded errors.

The challenge is this - you're not really going to learn if the Exaktbox is right for you, because there are other variables involved.  By all means give it a go, but if it doesn't sound good to you, I suggest that it is not necessarily correct to extrapolate that Exakt is the problem.  The problem could be due to all the other compromises.

If you can persuade Linn to provide me with the Exakt designs for AV5140 and Espek, I have the profile for OW1 so I could probably build a decent set of filters from that.  The ideal would be to have physical access to the speakers of course :)

 
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Paulssurround

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Well only the Front and Centre are Katalyst, the surrounds are 520s and rears are non-Kat exakt Majik 109s. It probably sounds very similar to yours. I don't listen to multichannel music except for DVD and Bluray concerts and for those I am mainly drawn in by the picture and front soundstage.

I struggled for a long time to integrate Exakt Kabers with an analogue surround system when I first bought an AEDSM and EBox6. Believe me when I say I tried every possible variation of settings and configuration unsuccessfully before giving up and putting hard earned cash into all channels Exakt. There was no way I was going to go back to analogue Aktiv after hearing my Kabers Exakt!
Thank you, that is a great Linn system you have.

‘I had a period of time where I had  Exakt front speakers but my centre and surrounds were analog. I was feeding the centre and surrounds from my OPPO 105 and suppling the centre and surrounds through a Classe SSP-800 surround processor. As you know the timing between speakers was not right.

It was disappointing for me when I played my 5.1 DVD-Audio and SACD discs, as the timing between channels was off for many of my favourite albums. Movies and music concerts were less of an issue, but still not quite right. It was not until I went Exakt Surround that it all came together. 

I was in Scotland several years ago, and met Keith Robertson, who was the director of development of new products at Linn. That evening, a group of us went out for drinks with Keith and Philbo, where they discussed their intentions to create Exakt Surround. They were not sure how they could get it to work, as they had two possible avenues of research and development.. A few months later, they had a solution, so I went out and bought some Exaktboxes to become one of their first beta testers. 

As you know, Exakt Surround is fantastic, and I still think of it as one of Linn’s greatest accomplishments. 

 
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Paulssurround

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Once again thanks a lot for all the input

so far i do understand that going Exakt should be pretty much straight forward, and that I can simply use the standard Espek filters to start with, even so I do have OW I tweeters. Don't know how much of a difference to the original tweeters it would make, but as I mentioned, I still have the original Espek tweeters and I could give them a try if I want to.

Exakt will be more detailed and revealing, maybe "clinical" and I am looking forward to hear if the pros outweigh the cons.

Still being able to listen to surround will be a challenge and might not work very well. I will give it a try and see how far I can get with the given settings options the Oppo has to offer.

so no need for further arguments on the delay. Once I have the setup ready I will see what I can do in my particular situation and then I will report.
Definitely worth a try

All the best

 
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akamatsu

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Still being able to listen to surround will be a challenge and might not work very well. I will give it a try and see how far I can get with the given settings options the Oppo has to offer.

so no need for further arguments on the delay. Once I have the setup ready I will see what I can do in my particular situation and then I will report.
Agreed. You are at the point of try it out. The variability of the delay seems to be a non-issue. As @scallon pointed out the variability is between different system and is determined by the complexity of Exakt in that system.

That @Paulssurroundused his system in a hybrid configuration for a few years would indicate that it did work to some degree. Of course, all Exakt would be much better. But then "the pursuit of perfection is the enemy of the good enough."

I look forward to your next report.

 

aurelio

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@sunbeamglsonly the wooden boxes and the labels on the back are still AV5140s. Tweeters and mid drivers were upgraded to ESPEK drivers.

Bass drivers (to my knowledge) where the same for AV5140 and ESPEK and did not need to be changed.

I then changed the SPKR 038/2 tweeters for OW I

according to the Linn Aktive Card Selektor (Rev.22) XLS the active cards are the same for AV5140 and ESPEK and those are the ones I am using at the moment.

So I think regarding going exakt with my speakers should be OK and not cause any issues.

If you can persuade Linn to provide me with the Exakt designs for AV5140 and Espek, I have the profile for OW1 so I could probably build a decent set of filters from that. 
Well if I was 30 years younger and if a woman was in charge of the EXAKT designs, I could use my blue eyes and Italian charm, but now the days this worked are long gone. ;)

The dealer should also be able to provide me with decent support should I need it.

But asking the forum for advice and looking at all the input I got is always not only a good option but a must

 
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Paulssurround

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Agreed. You are at the point of try it out. The variability of the delay seems to be a non-issue. As @scallon pointed out the variability is between different system and is determined by the complexity of Exakt in that system.

That @Paulssurroundused his system in a hybrid configuration for a few years would indicate that it did work to some degree. Of course, all Exakt would be much better. But then "the pursuit of perfection is the enemy of the good enough."

I look forward to your next report.
Yes, it did work to some degree., but distracting on many of my favourite albums.

‘I was very relieved when I went all Exakt, as I could finally hear my 5.1 music as it should be

 
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frans5508

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I have 'all Exakt' surround and have no timing issues to my knowledge. I'll double check and dive a bit deeper in this as i think this is a very interesting topic.

Just fyi, I did try a combo at the time between Linn analog equipment and a 'sophisticated' Marantz 8802AV pre-amp; i was running a 9.2 setup with Dolby Atmos but it was completely off, while sacrificing good stereo. That was the point that I decided to focus on quality first over quantity. And i am actually now at a point that I would have preferred to invest in an optimal (Klimax level) stereo setup first and as next step add the surround set up but water under the bridge ;-).  I thought i appreciated 'surround (mainly movies, although Paul introduced me to surround music)' as much as i did 'stereo' but the reality is that i appreciate really good stereo more. 

Going full exakt in surround is an expensive route for sure....

 

akamatsu

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Yes, it did work to some degree., but distracting on many of my favourite albums.

‘I was very relieved when I went all Exakt, as I could finally hear my 5.1 music as it should be
I'm thinking that the OP's setup may work adequately for watching movies.

I don't think I would even want to listen to music in 5.1 as I would expect two channel Exakt to outperform.

 

frans5508

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I have 'all Exakt' surround and have no timing issues to my knowledge. I'll double check and dive a bit deeper in this as i think this is a very interesting topic.
I rephrase: I'll probably have similar timing issues and i'll check this later today'. I meant to say is that it's not noticeable to my ears but i might be surprised i guess.

ps might there be an additional benefit of running surround through the surround module vs through the OPPO? This might already be covered earlier in the thread

 
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akamatsu

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I rephrase: I'll probably have similar timing issues and i'll check this later today'. I meant to say is that it's not noticeable to my ears but i might be surprised i guess.

ps might there be an additional benefit of running surround through the surround module vs through the OPPO? This might already be covered earlier in the thread
With all Exakt, you don't have timing issues.

I've wondered about Oppo vs. Linn surround module. I have an Oppo 103 which is a $600 component. I don't expect more than $600 performance. Mine is bitstreaming to an Akurate Kontrol AV.

 
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Paulssurround

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I'm thinking that the OP's setup may work adequately for watching movies.

I don't think I would even want to listen to music in 5.1 as I would expect two channel Exakt to outperform.
It depends what you are looking for. 

I get to enjoy Exakt stereo and 5.0 surround, and I find Exakt surround more engaging and immersive to listen to.

‘My Exakt surround provides more detail in 5.0 than the same album streamed in stereo, but stereo provides more precise renditions. I hear better differentiation between the instruments in surround, and hear details that don’t show up as clearly in stereo. It is the difference between 10 speaker drivers (stereo) versus 23 speaker drivers (surround) 

With all Exakt, you don't have timing issues.

I've wondered about Oppo vs. Linn surround module. I have an Oppo 103 which is a $600 component. I don't expect more than $600 performance. Mine is bitstreaming to an Akurate Kontrol AV.
There is a huge difference between the OPPO 103 and the newer  OPPO 203 and 205. They are worlds apart in sound quality, and the OPPO 2XX is a much better streamer than the 1XX series 

 

scallon

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I've wondered about Oppo vs. Linn surround module. I have an Oppo 103 which is a $600 component. I don't expect more than $600 performance.
I believe Linn use an off-the-shelf OEM solution although they may do the interface firmware themselves. OPPO had economies of scale on their side when they were manufacturing so I don't believe a cost comparison suggests the Linn solution will be significantly better (if at all), especially for the later OPPO models. The only reason I would want one is to use external streaming box which can't output PCM multichannel via the DSM HDMI. It is pointless trying to feed audio direct from TV (i.e. SMART TV Apps) because there is always going to be a significant audio delay between picture and Exakt channel output.

 
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There is a huge difference between the OPPO 103 and the newer  OPPO 203 and 205. They are worlds apart in sound quality, and the OPPO 2XX is a much better streamer than the 1XX series 
I agree, having had both on demo here. It is a real shame that Oppo pulled out as that  would have been my preferred route forwards as I have no  timing issues with an all active Kisto based system (until  it one day  it decides  not to power up (but I do have a spare)!). There is no logic comparing $ values (and the Dolby chips are probably the same in both anyway). There's obviously more profit for Oppo selling phones (our loss) ....

 

akamatsu

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ps might there be an additional benefit of running surround through the surround module vs through the OPPO?
I believe Linn use an off-the-shelf OEM solution although they may do the interface firmware themselves. OPPO had economies of scale on their side when they were manufacturing so I don't believe a cost comparison suggests the Linn solution will be significantly better (if at all), especially for the later OPPO models.
Let's go with this for the sake of discussion. Oppo (or whatever other brand) surround processing circuit being equal to Linn's. Perhaps at Akurate level, there would be no difference. However, at Klimax level, the Linn surround module would benefit from the Klimax machined case. If one is going all out at Klimax level, why not really go all out?

 

scallon

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However, at Klimax level, the Linn surround module would benefit from the Klimax machined case. If one is going all out at Klimax level, why not really go all out?
LOL. Maybe. If it was just for my OPPO I probably would still not bother. I think that movie soundtracks will always be low quality compared to Vinyl and HiRes digital, however good the decoder. It doesn't matter because to me the image quality is much more important.

 
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