Do Watts matter

EddieRUKidding

Eddie RU Kidding
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Power in a reactive circuit depends on the phase difference between the voltage and current. A pure inductance or capacitance doesn't dissipate any power!

I think the real world challenge power amps face is in delivering the required voltage and current significantly out of phase with each other. With real speakers the phase difference varies considerably with frequency.

Regards Andrew

PS I think most (all) quoted and measured powers are into pure resistance loads where the voltage and current are exactly in phase.
"Watt" phase are we talking about here, reactive yes but don't confuse phase with inductance and reactance in simple Audio circuits.
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/ac-inductors.html

Useful link to Speaker impedence
https://geoffthegreygeek.com/understanding-speaker-impedance/
 
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andrew s

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"Watt" phase are we talking about here, reactive yes but don't confuse phase with inductance and reactance in simple DC circuits.
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/ac-inductors.html

Useful link to Speaker impedence
https://geoffthegreygeek.com/understanding-speaker-impedance/
I don't think I am confused at all. Your link shows reactance varies with frequency, which it does. At DC the reactance is zero.

None the less the power dissipated is zero at any value of pure inductance or capacitance. The phase being between the applied voltage and the current it induces in the circuit. See here
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/power-in-ac-circuits.html#:~:text=AC Power in a Purely Resistive Circuit&text=Resistors are electrical devices that,R = V2/R.
Regards Andrew
 
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EddieRUKidding

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I don't think I am confused at all. Your link shows reactace varies with frequency, which it does. At DC the reactance is zero.

None the less the power dissipated is zero at any value of pure inductance or capacitance. The phase being between the applied voltage and the current it induces in the circuit.

Regards Andrew
But the "Out of Phase" you mention - between voltage and current " significantly out of phase" this is always the case in Ac circuits.........
in a purely capacitive circuit, the current IC “LEADS” the voltage by 90o. In a purely inductive AC circuit the exact opposite is true, the current IL “LAGS” the applied voltage by 90o
ie There is no Rocket science here
 
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huwge

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tricky
I run 2 systems
1 valve based <20watt/channel (efficient speakers known synergy with the amp)
the other ss based >300watt/channel (awkward speaker load known synergy with the amp)
They both sound superb, though I do have a preference
Horses for courses as they say
A bit of research should get you an appropriate combination and of course trial and error can be fun for a while.
I’ve not changed anything other than cartridges for years now though.
 

maddog_007

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Efficiency is a big part of it. My first system in 1975 had a 20w per channel amp driving speakers that were rated at handling 20w
It was by far the loudest I've used. They had 8 inch paper coned woofers and should be more efficient than the 5 inch woofers in my Tablettes.
I sure that it's not as simple as just this but it does make a big difference.
As I understand it every increase in volume of 3db requires double the watts. When I moved from 20w per channel to 30w per channel there was barely any noticeable difference in volume.
I'm sure someone will be along to put me right, but this is how I've always understood it to be the case.

Andy
The qualty of loudspeaker crossovers can be a large factor in this equation.

I have the Signature version of Totem Forest and have found quite a difference in my earlier pair of 'normal' Forests.

They seem to handle more 'power/watts' without going into distortion.

My Linn Akurate C4200 is quite capable of annoying my neighbours when I'm too enthusiastic with the 'loudness' button! 😀
 
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EddieRUKidding

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I'm annoying my neighbours right now (and Mrs Eddie who is gardening in the back yard) with my Mantra Manticore/ Denon DL103 pumping out some nice and loud Leo Kottke "The Best" thru a old Nad 1020B pre and Nad 2140 power blasting some old AR93's, no loudness button req'd :cool:
 

tuga

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Interesting, but he should have used proper speakers...
His single drivers are "screaming" even before they've reached 80dB at the listening spot (which is around 86dB at 1m).
In other words, they sound "loud" (distorting) even before they're actually playing loud (which might be a good thing, for the neighbours).

Also, using steady-state programme doesn't pose much of a challenge to either amplifiers or speakers. He could have tried something orchestral with wide dynamic swings and deep bass (OK, that would have been unfair considering the speakers being used here).

With a decent system in that small space the room should give up before the system (one would have to leave the room even before the system started distorting due to the unbearably loud level).
 
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tuga

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A good way to test the distortion I am referring to is to play the same track at the same high-ish level in a smartphone and in a stereo system.
 

tuga

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The qualty of loudspeaker crossovers can be a large factor in this equation.

I have the Signature version of Totem Forest and have found quite a difference in my earlier pair of 'normal' Forests.

They seem to handle more 'power/watts' without going into distortion.

My Linn Akurate C4200 is quite capable of annoying my neighbours when I'm too enthusiastic with the 'loudness' button! 😀

Drivers, ports and to a certain extent cabinets will be the factor in this equation.
Crossover? I doubt it. (if it creates a difficult load, use a more capable amplifier)

Looking at Stereophile and Soundstage measurements of Totem speakers port design seems to be a serious problem.
 

maddog_007

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Drivers, ports and to a certain extent cabinets will be the factor in this equation.
Crossover? I doubt it. (if it creates a difficult load, use a more capable amplifier)

Looking at Stereophile and Soundstage measurements of Totem speakers port design seems to be a serious problem.
My Totems have two rear firing ports,so benefit from having a bit of room behind them.

They don't dominate the lounge and h.ave the perfect WAF factor of beautiful high gloss cherry cabinets!.
 

Klassik

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I have a 50 Watt amp and I’m very happy with how loud it can play. But what would it mean if I’d hook my amp to a big poweramp? Would I notice any difference in sound? What do you think?
Klassik had been using a 30 wpc @ 8 ohms vintage amplifier for the past couple of years until Klassik swapped that out for a 100 wpc @ 8 ohms amplifier that Klassik also had on hand. Klassik cannot say that the additional power of the bigger amp is really needed. The 30 wpc amplifier was more than sufficient for Klassik's needs even with highly dynamic classical music CD/SACD recordings where quiet passages can very quickly give way to loud tuttis with percussion and everything else.

That said, the other day Klassik was listening to a CD that has clavichord music tracks mixed in with organ music tracks. Klassik's initial plan was to turn up the volume on the clavichord tracks and then turn it back down for the organ tracks to have an even listening experience, but the liner notes for the recommended listening to the CD with the same volume throughout to get the natural feel for the clavichord. Ok, fair enough Klassik thought. Knowing which amplifier was installed, Klassik decided to listen to turn it up such that the organ parts were very loud and the clavichord parts were passably loud enough. :cool:

While bookshelf speakers, even large ones, without a subwoofer are hardly the ideal setup for organ music, Klassik was quite pleased with how everything sounded all things considered. It's probably the most realistic sounding reproduction of organ music Klassik has heard at Kasa Klassik without the use of a subwoofer. Klassik cannot say for sure without trying, but Klassik has some doubts Klassik could have replicated that same experience on the 30 wpc amplifier. Of course, most people aren't listening to organ music loudly like this so this is a rather extreme example of where a more powerful amplifier might be beneficial.

Isn't that something to do with speakers getting less & less efficient? Or, manufacturers recommending higher & higher power outputs to drive them?
One of the more interesting speakers to come out here in the last few months, in the US at least, are the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-LX 'bookshelf' speakers. For those who don't know, Ascend Acoustics is a direct-to-customer speaker company here in the US who assembles their speakers, even their budget offerings, in California. It's quite a respected brand here in the US. but Klassik reckons they are largely unknown outside this country due to their distribution model. Anyway, the Sierra-LX is one of Ascend Acoustics new speakers designed with the aid of a Klippel NFS which uses SEAS drivers in a very ordinary rear-ported cabinet to achieve a listed frequency response of 28 Hz-23 kHz. The price is $1500 USD/pair.

In all the marketing statements Ascend has with these speakers, they do make this claim:

Ascend Acoustics said:
The only sacrifice made is with sensitivity, thus the LX will require a bit more power than typical - but with today's affordable high powered amplifiers, this is not an issue.

https://ascendacoustics.com/collections/sierra-series-pairs/products/sierra-lx-pair

Klassik knows not what to make of that statement. On the one hand, it seems that these days, so many people are using little Chi-Fi tube amps, little Class D amps, AVRs with rather optimistic power output ratings, and things like that. For those people, that comment from Ascend Acoustics seems rather questionable. OTOH, perhaps those truly interested in small speakers with exceptional low-end performance are the kind who would be using larger amplifiers anyway. Well, presumably that is who Ascend Acoustics is marketing these speakers to at least. Perhaps Ascend Acoustics figures those with small amplifiers will buy other speakers with higher sensitivity and those with AVRs are not interested in speakers with good low-end performance since they'll likely be using subwoofers anyway. These speakers seem to be marketed to a pretty niche crowd of 2-channel music listeners with large amps.
 

tuga

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That said, the other day Klassik was listening to a CD that has clavichord music tracks mixed in with organ music tracks. Klassik's initial plan was to turn up the volume on the clavichord tracks and then turn it back down for the organ tracks to have an even listening experience, but the liner notes for the recommended listening to the CD with the same volume throughout to get the natural feel for the clavichord. Ok, fair enough Klassik thought. Knowing which amplifier was installed, Klassik decided to listen to turn it up such that the organ parts were very loud and the clavichord parts were passably loud enough. :cool:

I hope that Klassik is joking. 😁
 

tuga

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Isn't that something to do with speakers getting less & less efficient? Or, manufacturers recommending higher & higher power outputs to drive them?

To get bass in small speakers you need long-excursion small mid-woofers which require more power.
Heavy cone materials also require more power.
Power has become cheap and people want smaller speakers, so manufacturers are happy.
 
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Klassik

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I hope that Klassik is joking. 😁
The clavichord is a fine instrument, but it's rather pointless playing clavichord music if Klassik cannot hear it. Thus, Klassik prefers playing recordings back at levels which makes the clavichord sound more like a fortepiano. Certainly this is a controversial method. :D As for the organ music, Klassik figured it's probably best not to make the neighbors think that Klassik is performing bizarre religious rituals at Kasa Klassik, but Klassik decided to ignore those sensibilities this time. ;)
 

tuga

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One of the more interesting speakers to come out here in the last few months, in the US at least, are the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-LX 'bookshelf' speakers.
The measurements are pretty stellar for a sharp-edged box with non-concentric drivers.
But it is still a small standmount mount with a small midwoofer, there's no way that the manufacturers bass extension claims can materialise (unless one is not particularly demanding of sound quality).
It needs a sub, particularly in typically huge US homes.

https://ascendacoustics.com/products/sierra-lx-pair?variant=40080757162038
 

tuga

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The clavichord is a fine instrument, but it's rather pointless playing clavichord music if Klassik cannot hear it. Thus, Klassik prefers playing recordings back at levels which makes the clavichord sound more like a fortepiano. Certainly this is a controversial method. :D As for the organ music, Klassik figured it's probably best not to make the neighbors think that Klassik is performing bizarre religious rituals at Kasa Klassik, but Klassik decided to ignore those sensibilities this time. ;)

Which album are you referring to? I'd be interested to hear it.

And let me suggest this recording of cello and organ (track 4):

0886445399370_600.jpg
 

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