Have we reached the limit (Measurements)

StingRay

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I don’t but saying that measuring equipment or methods nowadays are not fit for purpose isn’t truth . You’re correct saying that most of reviews use just basic measurements which not necessarily show the difference , some manufacturers don’t provide even basic information which is a sad thing especially if we are talking about speakers.
I was lucky when looking for speakers , must be over 10 years ago now , as I shortlisted nicely measuring stand mounts then listen to few and bought coincidentally once which measured best of all ,
Not heard your speakers, they get good reviews but I was looking at more budget options, those Kef would have been too much for my last house, then I would have to spend a good amount on the amp. So would have been way over budget. Now I have a larger house with concrete floors I may get something different.
 

mac72

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Rooms can play a large part in the sound, so measurements are not the complete answer. Testing in a treated room will be different from an average living room, construction can also make a huge difference.
and this is exactly what I’ve been trying to say , if you have speakers you like measure response in your room , if possible check anechoic speakers response then look for similarly mesearing one to upgrade to avoid disappointment . Listening to equipment at dealers or anywhere else than your own room would give you an idea but your room could skew perceived sound and stuff sounding better elsewhere could not be what you’re looking for.
 

StingRay

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and this is exactly what I’ve been trying to say , if you have speakers you like measure response in your room , if possible check anechoic speakers response then look for similarly mesearing one to upgrade to avoid disappointment . Listening to equipment at dealers or anywhere else than your own room would give you an idea but your room could skew perceived sound and stuff sounding better elsewhere could not be what you’re looking for.
Yes ideal to try at home but often not possible, my last house had a particular problem with bass. As I said many speakers don’t have measurement, trying out different speakers and amps, even in Essex was a problem.
By the way where did you demo your KEFs?
 

mac72

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Yes ideal to try at home but often not possible, my last house had a particular problem with bass. As I said many speakers don’t have measurement, trying out different speakers and amps, even in Essex was a problem.
By the way where did you demo your KEFs?
it was AudioT in Brentwood , they didn’t stock Reference series but have had cancelled order pair , including stands which I bought at later date - their shop is no more unfortunately. My pair was exdemo bought from Fanthorpes I think.
 

StingRay

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it was AudioT in Brentwood , they didn’t stock Reference series but have had cancelled order pair , including stands which I bought at later date - their shop is no more unfortunately. My pair was exdemo bought from Fanthorpes I think.
I see, ok thanks.
 

mac72

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I see, ok thanks.
If you fancy travelling to Shenfield one Saturday you’re welcome to have a listen to my pair , it would be at least few weeks when I possibly can have some free time though . I run them biamped with DSP applied to woofers and tiny bit of subwoofer reinforcement.
 

StingRay

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If you fancy travelling to Shenfield one Saturday you’re welcome to have a listen to my pair , it would be at least few weeks when I possibly can have some free time though . I run them biamped with DSP applied to woofers and tiny bit of subwoofer reinforcement.
Thanks for the invite but a bit to far for me, I’m in northeast Suffolk now. If I m planning to visit Essex I will let you know. I’m tied up until July as well.
 

DomT

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First of all you need to read what I have said , I have never implied , at least in this specific post , that your system is set up not correctly. What I have said speaker or speakers you’re referring to are not flat as they are missing low end from 80 Hz down , that’s all . Speakers I use are not that different but go bit lower .
Benchmark quote you need to re-read again as what they have said is if you hear something and measurement don’t show any difference point to conclusion that measurements used weren’t fit for purpose but don’t say it not possible to measure .
Im interested which speakers show smile response , it wasn’t dig at your post but pure curiosity, let’s see what Pope @tuga say
I am not going to respond further but you seem to be missing the point. Tuga said that existing measurements are sufficient. Others said differently. He disagreed. I provided a link to Benchmark that clearly states the following as indeed you quoted the same:

“essential that we develop measurements for each artifact that we identify in a listening test. An APx555 test set has far more resolution than human hearing, but it has no intelligence. We have to tell it exactly what to measure and how to measure it. When we hear something that we cannot measure, we are just not doing the right measurements”

This is clearly at odds with Tugas comments. He likes to write in the style that he is the absolute authority and it’s irritating because it’s clear that it’s just an opinion. Benchmark are clearly stating that they have to “develop measurements” and therefore existing measurements by definition cannot be sufficient.

In respect of the Neumanns they are absolutely flat within their design goals and you just need to read the graphs. It’s obvious that they were not designed to have a 15” woofer and neither are they in a massive cabinet and so to suggest that they are not flat it just playing games; they are probably the flattest monitor on the market within their design parameters.
 

mac72

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I am not going to respond further but you seem to be missing the point. Tuga said that existing measurements are sufficient. Others said differently. He disagreed. I provided a link to Benchmark that clearly states the following as indeed you quoted the same:

“essential that we develop measurements for each artifact that we identify in a listening test. An APx555 test set has far more resolution than human hearing, but it has no intelligence. We have to tell it exactly what to measure and how to measure it. When we hear something that we cannot measure, we are just not doing the right measurements”

This is clearly at odds with Tugas comments. He likes to write in the style that he is the absolute authority and it’s irritating because it’s clear that it’s just an opinion. Benchmark are clearly stating that they have to “develop measurements” and therefore existing measurements by definition cannot be sufficient.

In respect of the Neumanns they are absolutely flat within their design goals and you just need to read the graphs. It’s obvious that they were not designed to have a 15” woofer and neither are they in a massive cabinet and so to suggest that they are not flat it just playing games; they are probably the flattest monitor on the market within their design parameters.
Let’s agree to disagree then , I have quite important decisions to be made tonight about our dinner, should I go for a steak or seafood hmmm…
Only thing we seem to have in common is fondness for studio monitors , it’s a good start , unless you disagree:)
 

lindsayt

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I'll stop you right there. This tiny standmount is being compared with an even smaller PMC which I presume is what @StingRay is looking for.
If only you were paying attention... :rolleyes:
So, if I do some measurements on what came out of my bottom this morning and what came out of my bottom yesterday, would it be appropriate for me to say that this morning's effort had "excellent measured performance" for use as a trophy to award to the winner of tonight's snooker tournament in Sheffield?

Or would it be fair comment to say that the measurements I've taken are inadequate for making a decision? And that when put to the test of using my movements as a trophy, both are well short of what could be sourced elsewhere?
 
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DomT

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Let’s agree to disagree then , I have quite important decisions to be made tonight about our dinner, should I go for a steak or seafood hmmm…
Only thing we seem to have in common is fondness for studio monitors , it’s a good start , unless you disagree:)
Indeed. And I have an architects meeting. I am really looking forward to when we get to talk about measurements but fortunately we both talk metric and so we will be fine.
 
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Sotosound

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So, if I do some measurements on what came out of my bottom this morning and what came out of my bottom yesterday, would it be appropriate for me to say that this morning's effort had "excellent measured performance" for use as a trophy to award to the winner of tonight's snooker tournament in Sheffield?

Or would it be fair comment to say that the measurements I've taken are inadequate for making a decision? And that when put to the test of using my movements as a trophy, both are well short of what could be sourced elsewhere?
Yuk.

Please can we let the matter drop?
 
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mac72

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So, if I do some measurements on what came out of my bottom this morning and what came out of my bottom yesterday, would it be appropriate for me to say that this morning's effort had "excellent measured performance" for use as a trophy to award to the winner of tonight's snooker tournament in Sheffield?

Or would it be fair comment to say that the measurements I've taken are inadequate for making a decision? And that when put to the test of using my movements as a trophy, both are well short of what could be sourced elsewhere?
I would say very inadequate as there must have been lot of drinking involved in between both samples to come up with that sort of post
 

tuga

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So, if I do some measurements on what came out of my bottom this morning and what came out of my bottom yesterday, would it be appropriate for me to say that this morning's effort had "excellent measured performance" for use as a trophy to award to the winner of tonight's snooker tournament in Sheffield?

Or would it be fair comment to say that the measurements I've taken are inadequate for making a decision? And that when put to the test of using my movements as a trophy, both are well short of what could be sourced elsewhere?

You should have stopped when you had the chance...

We were discussing Formula Ford and you are telling me that you would prefer a Formula 1. Well, so would I. But it is off topic.
 

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