Integrating a sub into a 2-channel system

mac72

Wammer Plus
Wammer Plus
Apr 12, 2014
1,780
1,181
183
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I would avoid all other subs TBH.
Everything is about positioning and dialing in the sub , you can buy very expensive one put it in the wrong spot and it would do more harm than a cheap one in slightly better position ,
My first attempt was with fairly expensive REL , I spent hours trying to dial it in and re-positioning trusting just my ears , didn't work I've sold it in the end .
Second time I bought calibrated mic , done lots of measurements , spent lots of time moving sub from one place to another, I use SVS sub- built in eq filters help a lot as I can almost flatten annoying room mod with few dB reinforcement around mod frequency - final result sub is still with me and I can easily tell when I forget to turn it on . Build in EQ filters are quite handy as I was able to make few slightly different filters and compare while listening changing EQ from my mobile from listening position .
One thing I learnt , running LF "flat" down to the bottom is not my cup of tea , gentle slope down from 50Hz is much more pleasant to my ear but FR is just one of few things to consider .
 
  • Like
Reactions: tuga and Nifkin

antonio66

Well-Known Wammer
Wammer
Aug 12, 2018
1,907
1,367
133
Grimsby/Phnom Penh
AKA
David
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
  2. No
I recently purchased a pair of Quad 57's, took advice and got myself a REL T/5x, and I have to say it has made a big improvement. I still have to play with the settings and positioning yet, been giving the sub time to 'run in'. Not all speakers plumb the depths, Quad's being one of them and adding a sub has not only given decent bass but also depth to the soundstage.
 

Nifkin

Wammer
Wammer
Apr 4, 2019
987
714
113
Highgate London
AKA
Simon
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Everything is about positioning and dialing in the sub , you can buy very expensive one put it in the wrong spot and it would do more harm than a cheap one in slightly better position ,
My first attempt was with fairly expensive REL , I spent hours trying to dial it in and re-positioning trusting just my ears , didn't work I've sold it in the end .
Second time I bought calibrated mic , done lots of measurements , spent lots of time moving sub from one place to another, I use SVS sub- built in eq filters help a lot as I can almost flatten annoying room mod with few dB reinforcement around mod frequency - final result sub is still with me and I can easily tell when I forget to turn it on . Build in EQ filters are quite handy as I was able to make few slightly different filters and compare while listening changing EQ from my mobile from listening position .
One thing I learnt , running LF "flat" down to the bottom is not my cup of tea , gentle slope down from 50Hz is much more pleasant to my ear but FR is just one of few things to consider .
I've got a calibration mic on order, so I'm going to REW my room, and speaking of SVS, I'm rather interested in the 3000 Micro: it's small, which will give more options with positioning, and it has all those highly convenient phone-enabled adjustment tools. I will be spending plenty of time making sure it's set up properly,. Your last observation re a gentle slope to the bottom is interesting: will try out stuff like that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mac72

Nifkin

Wammer
Wammer
Apr 4, 2019
987
714
113
Highgate London
AKA
Simon
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Tried it Nif. The problem is, it also reduces the bass sent to the sub, as I run mine from the speaker terminals. Searching for one of my old threads,I discovered that I’d sent you almost the same message about my sub a year ago….🤪🤪🤪
Of course! If you're using the speaker level or pre-amp outputs to the sub they're going to be affected by the tone controls, I should've thought of that. Nevermind: I suspected it was a silly way of trying to replicate a HPF for the mains.


I don't remember talking to you about subs before?
 

mac72

Wammer Plus
Wammer Plus
Apr 12, 2014
1,780
1,181
183
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I've got a calibration mic on order, so I'm going to REW my room, and speaking of SVS, I'm rather interested in the 3000 Micro: it's small, which will give more options with positioning, and it has all those highly convenient phone-enabled adjustment tools. I will be spending plenty of time making sure it's set up properly,. Your last observation re a gentle slope to the bottom is interesting: will try out stuff like that.
3000 looks quite good , I thought about as it has two drivers and flat friendly small enclosure but I got 1000Pro at really good price so I went for the latter instead
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nifkin

KUBE

Newbie
Wammer
Dec 22, 2021
53
45
33
It all changed in 1995. Large sub enclosures, with highly efficient drivers, with lightweight cones, and supple cone surround suspensions were out.

In came small inefficient boxes, with low efficiency drivers, with big fat heavy surrounds and heavy cones designed to take a pounding over huge xmax excursions. Marketing swung into full effect and sold a negative as a positive. Low efficiency and a forced sound was pitched as "1000 watts and 3" of xmax Wow-ness". Ignoring all of the downsides.

There are still two types of subwoofer today. Those for musical accuracy and those for replicating cannon fire. They have nothing in common with each other.

Re: "It's all about positioning".

Nope I disagree :) You cannot polish a turd, no matter where you place it. Hence so many peoples experience with the likes of REL etc. Leave the cinema subs to cinemas. Or prepare to waste vast sums of cash being dissapointed with music.

Those JLs don't even have a great reputation in car audio, in the niche circles of SQ (sound quality) competition use. Let alone to try and force them into some of the uber refined high end systems people will be running on this forum.

It all comes back to physics. A heavy fat sub cone & heavy stiff suspension cannot ever move as swiftly and accurately as a lightweight cone. Why do you think companies like Magico etc experiment with carbon, graphene etc!

It is possible to achieve good results if you 'cheat' with tech - servo controlled cones help. Just throw more money to solve the problem the very design created. Too heavy a cone in too small a box.

Or you could just design something musical from the outset. But it won't look like an industrial grade weapon!
 

KUBE

Newbie
Wammer
Dec 22, 2021
53
45
33
ps

Have any of you experimented with positioning a sub at or near each corner of the room? So clearly 4 subs in total. There was a white paper written about it ages back. The idea is you remove room nulls.

No need for loads of electronic tricks and messing about. As the electronic route only improves things from ONE spot in the room. Then makes it worse everywhere else!

If I were designing a sub system now I would do this. While using something musical like a Peerless 12". Will likely cost a fraction as well.
 
  • Upvote
Reactions: newlash09

mac72

Wammer Plus
Wammer Plus
Apr 12, 2014
1,780
1,181
183
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
It all changed in 1995. Large sub enclosures, with highly efficient drivers, with lightweight cones, and supple cone surround suspensions were out.

In came small inefficient boxes, with low efficiency drivers, with big fat heavy surrounds and heavy cones designed to take a pounding over huge xmax excursions. Marketing swung into full effect and sold a negative as a positive. Low efficiency and a forced sound was pitched as "1000 watts and 3" of xmax Wow-ness". Ignoring all of the downsides.

There are still two types of subwoofer today. Those for musical accuracy and those for replicating cannon fire. They have nothing in common with each other.

Re: "It's all about positioning".

Nope I disagree :) You cannot polish a turd, no matter where you place it. Hence so many peoples experience with the likes of REL etc. Leave the cinema subs to cinemas. Or prepare to waste vast sums of cash being dissapointed with music.

Those JLs don't even have a great reputation in car audio, in the niche circles of SQ (sound quality) competition use. Let alone to try and force them into some of the uber refined high end systems people will be running on this forum.

It all comes back to physics. A heavy fat sub cone & heavy stiff suspension cannot ever move as swiftly and accurately as a lightweight cone. Why do you think companies like Magico etc experiment with carbon, graphene etc!

It is possible to achieve good results if you 'cheat' with tech - servo controlled cones help. Just throw more money to solve the problem the very design created. Too heavy a cone in too small a box.

Or you could just design something musical from the outset. But it won't look like an industrial grade weapon!
Interesting, can you post some room response measurements with and without BK sub
 

rdale

Wammer
Wammer Plus
May 21, 2009
2,806
1,774
178
Gran Canaria, Spain
AKA
Richard Dale
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
ps

Have any of you experimented with positioning a sub at or near each corner of the room? So clearly 4 subs in total. There was a white paper written about it ages back. The idea is you remove room nulls.

No need for loads of electronic tricks and messing about. As the electronic route only improves things from ONE spot in the room. Then makes it worse everywhere else!

If I were designing a sub system now I would do this. While using something musical like a Peerless 12". Will likely cost a fraction as well.
Putting four subwoofers, one in each corner will excite all the room modes. The paper you were thinking about was probably the one about putting four subwoofers in the middle of each side of the room, and as far as I can remember they used DSP.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nifkin

KUBE

Newbie
Wammer
Dec 22, 2021
53
45
33
You may be right, it is from many many years back in memory land :)
 

peter the butcher

Peter The Butcher
Wammer
Aug 19, 2020
229
156
63
Sleaford
AKA
Peter Allison
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Its just my OWN opinion, but here goes... Depending on the type of music one is playing, and how loud, a sub can be the answer (they have been around for a while now). I listen to a lot of "Pipe Organ" music and record it, and found unless I was to spend £1000's on speakers capable of reproducing low frequencies, then the addition of a sub (or 2) was paramount. A lot of other frequencies come from a good musical sub (I use 2 Rel 8/12's) and add a certain something, that is noticed straight away if the subs are turned off. Budget models are fine for some, where like everything else in this world, the more you budget for, the better the outcome. I started with a BK XXLS400, then went the full hog on one Rel, and a year later got another
 

Attachments

  • new subs.jpg
    new subs.jpg
    836.9 KB · Views: 7
  • Like
Reactions: Pressure

KUBE

Newbie
Wammer
Dec 22, 2021
53
45
33
With subs you can choose any two of three possible qualitues. But you cannot have them all...

1. High efficiency
2. Deep extension
3. A small box

The trouble is everyone wants a small box. So to 'force' the sounds out you need to stuff a huge amount of power up them. So then the driver NEEDS to be overbuit to hande that vast amount of power. So then it gets big, heavy, overbuilt, then xmax rises vastly to handle it all. These attributes then get advertised as benefits.

But imo what suffered was having perfectly natural accurate bass.

I was there watching it unfold in real time in home and car audio. I owned some of the first JL subs into the UK. It all changed since the high efficiency days. You also started to see some of the large home speakers go away.

Still, people now demand mega power and thousands of pounds worth of tech to try and sort it all out.

-

I found this interesting from a high end manufacturer...

"Bass is not rumbling noise associated with a passing starship".

"Small ported speakers and home cinema subwoofers exhibit very large group delay giving meaning to the term “murky bass”.

They explain the limitations of smaller enclosures... but then get into how they attempt to solve it... with vast sums of cash, big power, slightly larger enclosures than average...

https://www.thraxaudio.com/basus


Or you could build something much larger again and so more natural sounding with effortless breathing. I'd be tempted to build some huge transmission lines or horns if money was no object. Big boxes, light paper cone drivers, effortless scale and efficiency. Although no one will want them in a small lounge. But if perfect sonics is the goal, why not. Loads of the high end Japanese speaker companies do just that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Non-Smoking Man

KUBE

Newbie
Wammer
Dec 22, 2021
53
45
33
@Peter ... "Its just my OWN opinion"... That's all cool :) We all have different tastes and experiences.

I did the exact opposite of you. I sold a very expensive REL, then tried the BK with a Peerless 12" driver. It was night and day more accurate, as many said online. Instant cohesion with zero issues, right out of the box.

Slightly different to spending months trying every possible setting, location etc with that damn REL. Same system, same room.

I wouldn't buy any home cinema style sub again, as they just mirrored all the experiences learned in car audio since the early 90s. Heavy cones, surrounds and suspensions have a certain sort of sound. Not for me. I am not into home cinema anyway, so I don't need something to be a jack of all trades.
 

Non-Smoking Man

Wammer
Wammer
Mar 31, 2009
6,482
2,522
158
Chichester W. Sussx.
AKA
Jack lambert
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I agree with a lot of Kube's thinking..

I run a 5 way active horn system and the sub bass is handed to a pair of folded horns loaded with JBL 18" drivers. (They come in below 80Hz.)These drivers are intended for horns as they have low qts with lightweight paper cones and massive magnets. It is vital in a system such as this with lightning fast compression drivers from 450 hz upwards (one with a beryllium diaphram), that the subs 'keep up'.

The result, as has been commented by visitors, is a coherent and seamless picture where the bass is not divorced from the rest of the frequency range.

Oh, and not everyone is looking for a small sub woofer..(see an earlier post)! (To get deep bass from a horn it has to have long length and a big mouth, hence the reason they tend to be folded. My IK Audios (from the Happy Mondays touring rig) are 6 foot from throat to mouth but are the size of a reasonably large fridgefreezer.)

Jack NSM
 
  • Like
Reactions: purpleaardvark

DomT

Food and coffee and rock n roll
Wammer Plus
Jul 23, 2019
10,327
9,595
198
Village near Nottingham.
AKA
Dom
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Everything is about positioning and dialing in the sub , you can buy very expensive one put it in the wrong spot and it would do more harm than a cheap one in slightly better position ,
My first attempt was with fairly expensive REL , I spent hours trying to dial it in and re-positioning trusting just my ears , didn't work I've sold it in the end .
Second time I bought calibrated mic , done lots of measurements , spent lots of time moving sub from one place to another, I use SVS sub- built in eq filters help a lot as I can almost flatten annoying room mod with few dB reinforcement around mod frequency - final result sub is still with me and I can easily tell when I forget to turn it on . Build in EQ filters are quite handy as I was able to make few slightly different filters and compare while listening changing EQ from my mobile from listening position .
One thing I learnt , running LF "flat" down to the bottom is not my cup of tea , gentle slope down from 50Hz is much more pleasant to my ear but FR is just one of few things to consider .
My attempt to integrate an REL sub to some LS50s was equally frustrating. I couldn’t dial it in at all and so I also sold it. I always heard the sub separately and it was the same at dealers. But I am no expert. Measuring the room and being open minded about where the sub needs to be physically placed is important.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tuga and mac72

rdale

Wammer
Wammer Plus
May 21, 2009
2,806
1,774
178
Gran Canaria, Spain
AKA
Richard Dale
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
My attempt to integrate an REL sub to some LS50s was equally frustrating. I couldn’t dial it in at all and so I also sold it. I always heard the sub separately and it was the same at dealers. But I am no expert. Measuring the room and being open minded about where the sub needs to be physically placed is important.
I seem to be in a minority, but I think the most important thing to do before installing subwoofers is to treat the room modes with bass traps. Then the setup and integration of the subs will be more predictable.
 

DomT

Food and coffee and rock n roll
Wammer Plus
Jul 23, 2019
10,327
9,595
198
Village near Nottingham.
AKA
Dom
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I seem to be in a minority, but I think the most important thing to do before installing subwoofers is to treat the room modes with bass traps. Then the setup and integration of the subs will be more predictable.
Probably another reason to only consider subs in a dedicated music room.
 

BarneysDad

Wammer Plus
Wammer Plus
Sep 9, 2021
321
891
133
Melton Mowbray
AKA
Steve
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
American sub manufacturers Velodyne were recommended to me by a sound engineer.
The bad news is they are around 5 grand new.
The good news is, when they occasionally come up on eBay they have taken a huge drop, so either side of a grand.

https://www.velodyneacoustics.com/en/products/digital-drive-plus/
Tuneable to suit your room.
The supplied micophone & computer will do it, but I set mine up manually (below)
The only adjustment after setup is volume with the supplied remote.

Speakers are Quad 2905 electostatics.
Corner bass traps behind the speakers.


1663578920767.jpeg
 

Hornucopia

Wammer
Wammer
Feb 16, 2009
5,436
406
128
Bristol, , United Ki
AKA
Chris
HiFi Trade?
  1. Yes
Tricky. I have limited space, and its our living space now, so fridge-sized units are out (been there - Klipschorns!). So small subs more acceptable domestically.
Srajan has a good -if wordy - article on using Dynaudio twin 9 inch unit which is tempting me. It has 'pass through' facility which seems better than augmentation with melding the sound.
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/dynaudio/
My speakers go to 50 c/s, but 25 would be nice.. a la Quad 57 mentioned earlier.
Would love a Zu Submission sub, but....6 foot tall?
A Dynaudio 18S could sit roughly where the bamboo table (in pic) is, firing sideways, with secondary function as low table!
Pic taken from listening position.
(They are Diptyque Isodynamics.)
DSC01972.JPG
 
  • Like
Reactions: deggie

Minicoupeman

Wammer
Wammer
Jan 21, 2015
355
311
68
Sittingbourne
AKA
Andy Andrews
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I couldn’t disagree more with KUBE. So, small subs can’t produce what big ‘flappy’ subs can? I have had both. Wrong. Subs are for people who don’t have the right/ best/proper speakers? Rubbish. Bass is the most difficult to get right in any room. With Floor standing speakers you can only ‘adjust’ the bass by moving the speakers. Rarely acceptable in a domestic environment. With a sub you can dial in/tune the bass to suite the environment. I use a a REL T/9 with my ATC 19’s. I defy anyone to locate it in the room with eyes closed but turn it off and the sound stage collapse. In my time I have owned Linn Isobarics and big transition line speakers but I learnt that stand mounts and a sub beat everything else in a normal uk home. I accept that if your music system is in a Village Hall then big speakers will work.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
113,444
Messages
2,451,263
Members
70,783
Latest member
reg66

Latest Articles