Is ASR right

tuga

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ASR is a forum owned by Amir who publishes his own measurements and adds his comments.

My recommendation is that people ignore the comments and learn how to interpret the measurements and how to correlate them with their listening experience. It is the same with Hi-Fi News, Stereophile and other measurement sources.

ASR benefits from the participation of many knowledgeable engineers with expertise in many areas and a large number or manufacturers and designers.

The worst part in my view is the profusion of extremist objectivists which parrot absurdities without even the most basic understanding.

 
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newlash09

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ASR is a forum owned by Amir who publishes his own measurements and adds his comments.

My recommendation is that people ignore the comments and learn how to interpret the measurements and how to correlate them with their listening experience. It is the same with Hi-Fi News, Stereophile and other measurement sources.

ASR benefits from the participation of many knowledgeable engineers with expertise in many areas and a large number or manufacturers and designers.

The worst part in my view is the profusion of extremist objectivists which parrot absurdities without even the most basic understanding.
I am expected to interpret  measurements by a chap who never bothered to have a listen, and tune my listening by his interpretation :D

 
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MartinC

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What if any DSP is being applied for your comparisons @newlash09? I'm guessing none but it would be important if there is some. 

On the noise floor front, if you have nothing playing and then mute/unmute the SHD, are you able to hear a difference at your listening position? If you can then this could indicate a fault with your unit.

Would I be right to guess that the Esoteric you're comparing too was considerably more expensive than the SHD?

 
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newlash09

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ASR is a forum owned by Amir who publishes his own measurements and adds his comments.

My recommendation is that people ignore the comments and learn how to interpret the measurements and how to correlate them with their listening experience. It is the same with Hi-Fi News, Stereophile and other measurement sources.

ASR benefits from the participation of many knowledgeable engineers with expertise in many areas and a large number or manufacturers and designers.

The worst part in my view is the profusion of extremist objectivists which parrot absurdities without even the most basic understanding.
Can you please elaborate on that, benefiting from the participation of knowledgeable engineers please sir. As he is still measuring that same 1 kHz sine wave, which he has been measuring for years. So what's new that he is  doing now. Has his collaboration with these engineers, increased the accuracy of his measuring equipment, and has he qouted it in his website.

 

rabski

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ASR is a forum owned by Amir who publishes his own measurements and adds his comments.

My recommendation is that people ignore the comments and learn how to interpret the measurements and how to correlate them with their listening experience. It is the same with Hi-Fi News, Stereophile and other measurement sources.

ASR benefits from the participation of many knowledgeable engineers with expertise in many areas and a large number or manufacturers and designers.

The worst part in my view is the profusion of extremist objectivists which parrot absurdities without even the most basic understanding.
The worst part IMO is the 'fanboy' club who hang on every word as if it's gospel. The second worst part is what has already been mentioned in this, and countless other threads: the suggestion that measurements alone are enough to establish the quality or otherwise of something like a DAC.

Measurements are useful, some measurements are vital, many measurements are pointless and a lot of measurements are only helpful for the marketing department.

I've got one of the 'excellent measuring' and 'as good as it gets' DACs here. I don't use it as a DAC, because it's positively painful to listen to.

 

newlash09

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What if any DSP is being applied for your comparisons @newlash09? I'm guessing none but it would be important if there is some. 

On the noise floor front, if you have nothing playing and then mute/unmute the SHD, are you able to hear a difference at your listening position? If you can then this could indicate a fault with your unit.

Would I be right to guess that the Esoteric you're comparing too was considerably more expensive than the SHD?
Hello sir...  wishing you and your family a great year ahead :)

I've tried the minidsp shd almost 3 months back, and I knew that lot of members were happy with it. So I didn't post my listening impressions anywhere till now sir. I didn't want to criticise something that was not comparable to the esoteric due to  the obvious price differences involved.

But my todays post was triggered by the Dcs Bartok thread when it got into measurements. Fondly hope you understand. 

 

tuga

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The worst part IMO is the 'fanboy' club who hang on every word as if it's gospel. The second worst part is what has already been mentioned in this, and countless other threads: the suggestion that measurements alone are enough to establish the quality or otherwise of something like a DAC.

Measurements are useful, some measurements are vital, many measurements are pointless and a lot of measurements are only helpful for the marketing department.

I've got one of the 'excellent measuring' and 'as good as it gets' DACs here. I don't use it as a DAC, because it's positively painful to listen to.
Fanboyism is a good description. At times it feels more like a church than a stronghold of science.

 
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tuga

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Can you please elaborate on that, benefiting from the participation of knowledgeable engineers please sir. As he is still measuring that same 1 kHz sine wave, which he has been measuring for years. So what's new that he is  doing now. Has his collaboration with these engineers, increased the accuracy of his measuring equipment, and has he qouted it in his website.
His measurements suited are not comprehensive enough. He has at times added further measurements when pressed and has also expanded the bandwidth, not always without some resistance and snark remarks.

His decision not to listen and struck adherence to sometimes controversial audibility thresholds can only end in the every adequately designed equipment sounds the same rhetoric... It’s absurd.

 I am happy that there is one more source of measurements but his comments and prejudice are counterproductive.

 
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MartinC

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Hello sir...  wishing you and your family a great year ahead :)

I've tried the minidsp shd almost 3 months back, and I knew that lot of members were happy with it. So I didn't post my listening impressions anywhere till now sir. I didn't want to criticise something that was not comparable to the esoteric due to  the obvious price differences involved.

But my todays post was triggered by the Dcs Bartok thread when it got into measurements. Fondly hope you understand. 
No offense taken by the way. I'm not someone who would claim anything that I use is remotely perfect, including my SHD. Like most here I'm also always looking for way to improve the system I have  :) . And I very much take listening to be the final arbiter over measurements.

do think it's worth exploring the questions I asked though, to give a fair reflection of the SHD as a product. 

 
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rabski

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Fanboyism is a good description. At times it feels more like a church than a stronghold of science.
Yup. I have nothing against science and measurements. With my background, it would be a little odd if I did. However, many years ago I had it firmly pointed out that relying on measurements and ignoring observations was very poor science.

If something measures perfectly and sounds bloody awful, then we are either not measuring the right things, or more likely, we aren't measuring all the things that matter.

 

griffo104

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Read his conclusion to his Chord Mojo review and ,imo, you can see everything that's wrong with ASR.

It seems he has a personal crusade and, as mentioned above, got his church in place with his disciples following him regardless.

 
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tuga

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I am expected to interpret  measurements by a chap who never bothered to have a listen, and tune my listening by his interpretation :D
The measurements are just data. The problem start when you depend on someone else to interpret them for you.

For speakers he started publishing only the Spinorama, then added harmonic distortion and is bow producing CSD plots, impulse response plots and frequency response measurements of the individual drivers and ports. He seems to have accepted that his preconceived notion that the Spinorama was enough is wrong.

 

newlash09

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His measurements suited are not comprehensive enough. He has at times added further measurements when pressed and has also expanded the bandwidth, not always without some resistance and snark remarks.

His decision not to listen and struck adherence to sometimes controversial audibility thresholds can only end in the every adequately designed equipment sounds the same rhetoric... It’s absurd.

 I am happy that there is one more source of measurements but his comments and prejudice are counterproductive.
No offense taken by the way. I'm not someone who would claim anything that I use is remotely perfect, including my SHD. Like most here I'm also always looking for way to improve the system I have  :) . And I very much take listening to be the final arbiter over measurements.

do think it's worth exploring the questions I asked though, to give a fair reflection of the SHD as a product. 
Thanks sir... when your goodselves put it this way...I just melt at the help and advise :D

But iam still hankering for a proper fight today as regards ASR  sir  :D

 
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newlash09

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The measurements are just data. The problem start when you depend on someone else to interpret them for you.

For speakers he started publishing only the Spinorama, then added harmonic distortion and is bow producing CSD plots, impulse response plots and frequency response measurements of the individual drivers and ports. He seems to have accepted that his preconceived notion that the Spinorama was enough is wrong.
What exactly is your system sir...and has it all been vetted by ASR 

 

tuga

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It seems he has a personal crusade and, as mentioned, above got his church in place with his disciples following him regardless.
I think that you have pretty much nailed it.

But the forum has attracted lots of knowledgeable people and it’s them who make it worth a visit.

 

newlash09

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I think that you have pretty much nailed it.

But the forum has attracted lots of knowledgeable people and it’s them who make it worth a visit.
And they also paraded the minidsp shd which failed in my opinion :D

 

tuga

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What exactly is your system sir...and has it all been vetted by ASR 
I am sure that my BBC-style speakers would not get good marks. My DAC is the RME and my amplifier is a custom made minimalist solid state contraption that measures pretty well.

The DAC was bought on measurements and has remained due to it sonic presentation meeting my preference and expectations.

 I use measurements for shortlisting but I won’t keep anything that I don’t like.

 

newlash09

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I am sure that my BBC-style speakers would not get good marks. My DAC is the RME and my amplifier is a custom made minimalist solid state contraption that measures pretty well.

The DAC was bought on measurements and has remained due to it sonic presentation meeting my preference and expectations.

 I use measurements for shortlisting but I won’t keep anything that I don’t like.
Thanks for sharing that sir...it seems most of your  components are chosen by measurements...and they stay eventually if you like them. When liking them is necessary to stay for your musical enjoyment, then why even bother about measurements. A majority, if not most of us buy by what we like. So why should we care about how they measure. When we both eventually arrive at the liking part to nail our purchases.

 

griffo104

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Measurements have their place. 

I always enjoyed how Stereophile did them, separate from the review,  and if there was a big discrepancy between the review and the measurements it was brought up and the reviewer could defend themselves. I also enjoyed the fact the manufacturers got the chance to reply, some in great detail if they didn't agree with what was tested/reviewed. 

This is a balanced view of doing things and I think it's the best way of doing it. ASR has gone too far one way, dismissing any listening tests is poor and fails to back up what results the measurements may have shown.

I own two pieces of kit that have been very well reviewed, both Topping. The D50S dac which I use with the P50 and thoroughly enjoy and the L30 amp which I don't enjoy and is really not a pleasant listen. The L30 is of course the amp which blew many peoples headphones due to a problem in the design. Shame no measurements managed to find that fault, the SINAD, however, was state of the art though.

 
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tuga

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Thanks for sharing that sir...it seems most of your  components are chosen by measurements...and they stay eventually if you like them. When liking them is necessary to stay for your musical enjoyment, then why even bother about measurements. A majority, if not most of us buy by what we like. So why should we care about how they measure. When we both eventually arrive at the liking part to nail our purchases.
Measurements help me select the equipment with listening to. That way I waste less time and less money.

they also help me understand what could be causing audible issues and track down potential causes. They are also useful to understand what I like.

I find measurements as useful as listening, the two are complementary tools for one same goal.

 
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