Pro-Ject VC-S mkII - a mixed bag

Gaffer

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So I finally got an RCM to replace the somewhat messy and "only OK" Knosti Disco AntiStat manual cleaner.

Most places selling it for £350 + £25 lid but I managed to get a new one for £300 + £25 lid so a bit of a saving there. My alternative was to buy an Okki Nokki or a Watson's RCM for over a £100 more for the benefit of aluminium (not MDF) construction. The problem with these was the cost and the larger platter meaning the previous dirty side may transfer dirt to the platter which you then place the newly cleaned side of vinyl on in order the clean it's other side. Common sense suggests contamination is possible which I didn't want, but the VCS has a smaller label sized platter which attracted me to it.

Anyway on to the VC-S, ordered Thursday and arrived yesterday:

IMG_3168.JPG

Looks OK from a foot away all assembled but some things to note (oh, and before anything else, this was a Factory Condition unit, packed correctly with original seals in place - it was definitely NOT a returned item and appears to have come from the factory like this):

1) The nice "wooden handled, logo embossed" brush from the mkI is gone, replaced by a cheaper looking, generic plastic thing.

2) The mains plug arrived in a smashed up state:

f3grj8d.jpg


What it went through to have the Earth pin smashed off and the Neutral Pin bent inwards I don't know but I have asked the online shop I bought it from to send me a replacement.

3) The Machine itself appears quite poorly built on close inspection:

95IG6yx.jpg
 
I4npy4K.jpg


The bolts around the arm are of shocking quality - metal shavings flaking off and overall a horribly pockmarked and damaged look. They look like they're from a used parts bin and I could certainly buy better looking items from B&Q. I'll get round to polishing / painting them over at some point as they look worse than the piccies suggest in real life.

4) Nothing really fits snugly, from the side vent that won't sit flush (maybe it's not meant to?)

qq699z5.jpg


...to the Vacuum ON:Off switch that was half hanging out (and also doesn't fit perfectly flush), it's like this was assembled by a bloke in his garage workshop, NOT a polished factory item.

5) The clamp was the worst of all:

ynwtNJD.jpg


Do you see those marks on the edge? That's glue. It's not even completely dried glue - it's still sticky and was EVERYWHERE. This piccie is after me spending a good 10min trying to clean it off from around the edges. I don't want the label to stick to it and it appears to be "overspill" from the spongy pad that  was stuck on in the factory. Not Good.

6) The top of the clamp was worse. Globs of glue all over it and worse still, marks and dings as if either something had fallen on it or it had been dropped.

So out came the dremel and here it is after 30min of polishing:

sxnKV6l.jpg


Still not fully polished (I just used the polishing pad on it's own without any polishing compound so if I spent more time I could get it to a mirror finish) so it looks a bit "grainy".....but that's the point, I shouldn't need to be doinf this. It should come clean and unmarked from factory imo.

Again, this was not a returned item, it was unused from factory so I am quite disappointed with ProJect's efforts.

7) The lid. For the price it should be included imho

Overall, if you stand a few feet away, everything looks fine but when spending £325 I don't expect this so Build Quality 3/10

On to the functionality:

Noise: Motor a bit noisy (not as bad as some make out imo) but the vacuum is hella noisy. Not an issue as you're not usually listening at the same time but beware if you plan on placing this in the living room (mine's not). So yes it's noisy but acceptably so and I don't think any other Vacuum devices would be better so I'll give it a 7/10 here.

Cleaning: I am actually not using the solution it came with (which you have to dilute). I am actually using the Knosti solution from my old Disco AntiStat and it does a great job imo. Took me a few goes to figure out correct volumes (1st attempt resulted in solution everywhere) and now I think just around 5ml is right.

I don't tend to keep the platter spinning either as you can see the fluid moving to the edge of the record under centrifugal force. My routine is:

1) Record on platter and clamped -> Turn RCM motor on (doesn't matter which way)

2) Add ~5ml Knosti Disco Antistat and spread with supplied brush

3) STOP the rotation to allow the fluid to distribute evenly (not concentrate around the edges) and wait a 30s - 1minute

4) Start rotation again and now vacuum as well to clean up the fluid.

I don't bother with any "rotate it both ways" stuff as I don't know how that would help. A record doesn't have right angled steps in it so you won't "miss" anything going around in one direction. Plus, the brush is there to SPREAD the fluid into the grooves, not SCRUB the fluid into them (unless it is and I'm wrong?) so the above method is quicker.

The result? Brilliant. Does a great job of cleaning and is a massive improvement on the Disco AntiStat hands down - Less messy, Quicker to do, Plus no drying time.

For cleaning I'll give it 8/10, realising that my technique may not be perfect but even a klutz like me can do a good job so anyone can.

So there it is after a day of fiddling. Great functionality and does what it says on the tin but VERY poor build quality imo. I'm happy with it but due to the poor Pro-Ject workmanship, I actually would be tempted to spend the £440 on something like the Watson for what looks like a better built aluminium chassis under the understanding that the cleaning would be the same (i.e. the extra moolah's going on build quality only - the VC-S does a great cleaning job as it is).

 

manicatel

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Yeah, I’ve also got one & broadly agree with your assessment.

it does a very good job, for not excessive money but build quality isn’t super. 

In fact I’m not really wowed by Pro-Jects build quality in general. They do make some nice & very nice products but their reputation may get tarnished if they don’t keep a sharp eye on quality control.

 

Beobloke

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I’m surprised to read that you did what you did, frankly. If I had bought that and found it in that state it would have gone straight back!

I can’t help wondering if there’s a story behind this unit that none of us know as I have never seen anything even approaching that level of shoddy quality from Pro-Ject before.

 

Gaffer

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I thought about returning it,  but closer inspection of various videos of it in action confirmed that these are common issues with ALL of these from factory. i.e. this isn't a "rogue" or a returned product with a dark past - it's the factory condition of the product (I mean, you can see marks on the bolts, for instance, on the official Henley video of the mk2 machine). I've seen a fair few 3rd party reviews which had similar cosmetic defects to mine.

The only thing mine had extra was the broken plug - so the ill fitting parts/switches/poor bolts/sticky clamps etc may all be present and all exhibit poor workmanship from Pro-Ject imho --> which was the reason for this post, to inform folk what they'll get for their £325.

I therefore think returning the item would most probably gain me a new item with exactly the same issues that are inherent to how Pro-Ject are producing units (maybe they're cutting costs in the current economic climate and not taking as much care with the final appearance as they did with the mk1?)

 
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uzzy

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So I finally got an RCM to replace the somewhat messy and "only OK" Knosti Disco AntiStat manual cleaner.

Most places selling it for £350 + £25 lid but I managed to get a new one for £300 + £25 lid so a bit of a saving there. My alternative was to buy an Okki Nokki or a Watson's RCM for over a £100 more for the benefit of aluminium (not MDF) construction. The problem with these was the cost and the larger platter meaning the previous dirty side may transfer dirt to the platter which you then place the newly cleaned side of vinyl on in order the clean it's other side. Common sense suggests contamination is possible which I didn't want, but the VCS has a smaller label sized platter which attracted me to it.

Anyway on to the VC-S, ordered Thursday and arrived yesterday:

6A1EAD94-818C-4928-8E7D-D1F82FE955E3.jpeg

Looks OK from a foot away all assembled but some things to note (oh, and before anything else, this was a Factory Condition unit, packed correctly with original seals in place - it was definitely NOT a returned item and appears to have come from the factory like this):

1) The nice "wooden handled, logo embossed" brush from the mkI is gone, replaced by a cheaper looking, generic plastic thing.

2) The mains plug arrived in a smashed up state:



What it went through to have the Earth pin smashed off and the Neutral Pin bent inwards I don't know but I have asked the online shop I bought it from to send me a replacement.

3) The Machine itself appears quite poorly built on close inspection:

 

The bolts around the arm are of shocking quality - metal shavings flaking off and overall a horribly pockmarked and damaged look. They look like they're from a used parts bin and I could certainly buy better looking items from B&Q. I'll get round to polishing / painting them over at some point as they look worse than the piccies suggest in real life.

4) Nothing really fits snugly, from the side vent that won't sit flush (maybe it's not meant to?)



...to the Vacuum ON:Off switch that was half hanging out (and also doesn't fit perfectly flush), it's like this was assembled by a bloke in his garage workshop, NOT a polished factory item.

5) The clamp was the worst of all:



Do you see those marks on the edge? That's glue. It's not even completely dried glue - it's still sticky and was EVERYWHERE. This piccie is after me spending a good 10min trying to clean it off from around the edges. I don't want the label to stick to it and it appears to be "overspill" from the spongy pad that  was stuck on in the factory. Not Good.

6) The top of the clamp was worse. Globs of glue all over it and worse still, marks and dings as if either something had fallen on it or it had been dropped.

So out came the dremel and here it is after 30min of polishing:



Still not fully polished (I just used the polishing pad on it's own without any polishing compound so if I spent more time I could get it to a mirror finish) so it looks a bit "grainy".....but that's the point, I shouldn't need to be doinf this. It should come clean and unmarked from factory imo.

Again, this was not a returned item, it was unused from factory so I am quite disappointed with ProJect's efforts.

7) The lid. For the price it should be included imho

Overall, if you stand a few feet away, everything looks fine but when spending £325 I don't expect this so Build Quality 3/10

On to the functionality:

Noise: Motor a bit noisy (not as bad as some make out imo) but the vacuum is hella noisy. Not an issue as you're not usually listening at the same time but beware if you plan on placing this in the living room (mine's not). So yes it's noisy but acceptably so and I don't think any other Vacuum devices would be better so I'll give it a 7/10 here.

Cleaning: I am actually not using the solution it came with (which you have to dilute). I am actually using the Knosti solution from my old Disco AntiStat and it does a great job imo. Took me a few goes to figure out correct volumes (1st attempt resulted in solution everywhere) and now I think just around 5ml is right.

I don't tend to keep the platter spinning either as you can see the fluid moving to the edge of the record under centrifugal force. My routine is:

1) Record on platter and clamped -> Turn RCM motor on (doesn't matter which way)

2) Add ~5ml Knosti Disco Antistat and spread with supplied brush

3) STOP the rotation to allow the fluid to distribute evenly (not concentrate around the edges) and wait a 30s - 1minute

4) Start rotation again and now vacuum as well to clean up the fluid.

I don't bother with any "rotate it both ways" stuff as I don't know how that would help. A record doesn't have right angled steps in it so you won't "miss" anything going around in one direction. Plus, the brush is there to SPREAD the fluid into the grooves, not SCRUB the fluid into them (unless it is and I'm wrong?) so the above method is quicker.

The result? Brilliant. Does a great job of cleaning and is a massive improvement on the Disco AntiStat hands down - Less messy, Quicker to do, Plus no drying time.

For cleaning I'll give it 8/10, realising that my technique may not be perfect but even a klutz like me can do a good job so anyone can.

So there it is after a day of fiddling. Great functionality and does what it says on the tin but VERY poor build quality imo. I'm happy with it but due to the poor Pro-Ject workmanship, I actually would be tempted to spend the £440 on something like the Watson for what looks like a better built aluminium chassis under the understanding that the cleaning would be the same (i.e. the extra moolah's going on build quality only - the VC-S does a great cleaning job as it is).
Get yourself a mohair pad brush ( https://www.tilinglogistics.co.uk/Brushes-Pads/Sealer applicator and paint application pad ) this has thousands of tiny bristles to get into the groove. (I found cutting it exactly in half resulted in the perfect sized brush). 

Yes you do want to scrub inside the grooves not just spread the cleaner about.  No use cleaning the parts where the stylus has no contact .. the dirt resides in the grooves and a brush that gets right down in there is a must.   

The forward reverse action is vital - there is no bias control on your brush it will favour one side of the groove depending on the rotation.  So I do five revolutions forward and five revolutions backwards with the brush (more with a highly contaminated record e.g. bought second hand).  I don't know why but I always use backwards revolution for the vacuum process, probably because the KMAL I used to use in the 70s and 80s was done on the reverse with the vacuum arm working from the inside out on the record.

Last but not least make your own cleaning fluid. 

To make 1/2 (half) Litre.

400ml Triple Distilled Water
100ml Methyl Alcahol.
2.5ml of Ilford Ilfotol. 

Job done.  Triple distilled water is free of any impurities (lab grade) and easily found online as is Methyl Alcohol (which I was advised was better than Isopropyl and for me gives better results) and Ilford ilfotol is also available if you look - will set you back about £14 for a bottle which will last you a lifetime. 

(DO NOT USE ANY  CLEANING AGENT WITH ALCOHOL ON ACETATES OR OLD 78 RECORDS)

 

General Factotum

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      Glad to see you've resolved most of the problems on your machine, I can see why you're not best pleased with the QC though. Enjoy your cleaning fest :)

 

uzzy

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Oh I meant to also say .. buy replacement sleeves for your newly cleaned records .. it will avoid recontamination. I get packs of 50 from eBay when I am running low as I change the sleeve every time I clean a record however clean the record seemed before cleaning. 

 

rdale

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Oh I meant to also say .. buy replacement sleeves for your newly cleaned records .. it will avoid recontamination. I get packs of 50 from eBay when I am running low as I change the sleeve every time I clean a record however clean the record seemed before cleaning. 
I get my inner sleeves from covers33, white polylined are 21 pounds for 100:

https://www.covers33.co.uk/product-category/for-your-vinyl/12-vinyl/12-paper/

I've got a later model of the mark 1 Project VCS and I'm very pleased with it. It is a bit noisy, and the mark 2 is supposed to be quieter. The labels for the switches aren't stuck on very well, but other than that it seems to be built well enough. I use  L'Arte Du Son cleaning fluid with it which works well. I've read some reports saying that using alcohol in the cleaning fluid isn't a good idea.

 
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Gaffer

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Yep , I definitely need sleeves. Buying 2nd hand can leave you with weird...uh..."stains" on those inside covers (my Simon & Garfunkel for instance  :/ ).

Having said that my latest 2 LPs were brand new: Flaming Lips (Yoshimi Battle robot one) and Flight of the Conchords (i told you i was freaky).

Back to the VCS - the online store sent me a replacement plug today so kudos to them.

Been using it more and more and as I'm able to get 5ml syringes (and blunt drawing up needles) from work, I can confirm that 5ml is optimal  :^

So if I am actually meant to scrub (I was afraid of damaging the vinyl with scrubbing) would it be more like:

1) Record on platter and clamped -> Turn RCM motor on (doesn't matter which way)

2) Add ~5ml Knosti Disco Antistat and scrub in gently with supplied brush for 5 cycles

3) Reverse direction and repeat 2) for 5 cycles

4) STOP the rotation to allow the fluid to distribute evenly and wait a 30s - 1minute

5) Start rotation again and now vacuum as well to clean up the fluid (<-- doesn't matter which way you vacuum?)

I actually find the cleaning process strangely satisfying rather than a chore so don't mind adding one more step  :D

The record cleaning fluid I had written down went something like this:

Record Cleaning Fluid (201ml):

160ml distilled water

40ml 99.9% isopropyl alcohol

1ml detergent

but I'll have a look for some ilfotol instead if needed.

 

gintonic

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If I was the OP I would have sent it back regardless of whether it appears to be the norm.  Pro-ject need to sort this out.  I bet the setup instructions didn't say "before use polish off any excess glue from the record clamp".  This is shoddy, and not complaining and sending it back just perpetuates the practice.

 

Henley

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I am really sorry for the late reply to this but have only just been informed of the thread.

I would agree with the OP.  This is totally unacceptable and we would have preferred for the unit to have been returned as we try to offer great product at good value, combined with excellent customer service.  Issues will always occur, but we work closely with our suppliers to ensure that these are resolved promptly and efficiently as possible and welcome direct from contact customers.  Our mail address for support is technical@henleyaudio.co.uk 

The VCS has undergone quite an evolution since the original launch and we have continually pressed the factory to improve standards in every area.

As an update, I have personally checked some of our stock and am happy to report.

1.  The plastic brush is now the supplied standard.  We had issues with bristles falling out of the wood version over time and find that the new product is far superior in performance.

2.  Packing is improved massively, this will help prevent the transit damage that the OP experienced.

3.  Bolts are now stored correctly before manufacture, this avoids damage to the heads.

4.  Drain cover.  This needs to be proud as it assists with removal.  All our items fit squarely and are around 3-4mm proud.

5.  Clamp pad is now cleaned after adhesion.

6.  The clamp is also brushed aluminium and now looks far better.

7.  We cannot afford to offer the lid included at the current price.  The VCS sells for around €450 (approx £400) elsewhere, so we really have cut margins to the bone to keep the price as low as possible.

Labels have also been replaced by screen printing which looks far better.

I have attached some photos of the items we opened for interest.

I hope this helps reassure readers of our continued commitment to quality and service and would always welcome feedback directly at the mail address above.

Laurence Armstrong, Managing Director, Henley Audio

clamp.jpg

label.jpg

under.jpg

vent.jpg

 
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bbbiker800

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Well done Laurence for getting involved and responding to this thread - its good that manufacturers and distributors do so.

I'm sure those above will appreciate it and may well throw some more asks/questions.

I have one question for you: ignoring the vacuum noise i also hear noises on rotation that sound like chains/cogs etc - it changes with direction and with brush pressure. I'm sure its normal but I thought I'd ask just to make sure.

Also, I had to return a plastic brush as it dropped loads of bristles and was unusable - so maybe that problem isn't quite fixed yet.

Anyhow; great RCM ...

regards, richard

 

rabski

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Laurence, many thanks for the feedback and taking the time to answer comprehensively.

 
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Henley

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Well done Laurence for getting involved and responding to this thread - its good that manufacturers and distributors do so.

I'm sure those above will appreciate it and may well throw some more asks/questions.

I have one question for you: ignoring the vacuum noise i also hear noises on rotation that sound like chains/cogs etc - it changes with direction and with brush pressure. I'm sure its normal but I thought I'd ask just to make sure.

Also, I had to return a plastic brush as it dropped loads of bristles and was unusable - so maybe that problem isn't quite fixed yet.

Anyhow; great RCM ...

regards, richard
Thanks Richard,

The MK1 had a noisy motor that sounded as if it were grinding.  There actually was nothing wrong but the consumer reaction was sufficient for us to change the motor to a much quieter version in the MK11.

If you experience problems or are concerned, we will be happy to look at the machine and report.  The same goes for the brush, like most bristles, it will lose a couple to start with but should settle down very quickly, but we're happy to replace if you feel necessary - just send it to us with a mail beforehand to confirm that you're sending it to us.

Thank you all for your positive comments.  We really do try very hard to offer the very best service but recognise that we all get it wrong sometimes and it's how we fix it that really matters.

 
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bbbiker800

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Hi Laurence - thanks for the reply. I'm sure mine is a MkII and its not the motor itself. TBH i can't say im that bothered about it but just slightly concerned it might die one day ! Actually, it might be easier if i send in a sound recording of it - rather than go to the expense of sending it back ?.

The replacement brush Juno sent back is fine and very good quality so happy with that. 

cheers richard

 

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