Linn Owners

Re set tracking weight on EKOS SE/1 tonearm

Moomintroll

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And it reads 1.75g on a digital scale? Interesting.

I assume you’re talking about an Ekos SE?

’troll
 

ThomasOK

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Thomas, have you by any chance tried this method on non-Linn carts such those from Lyra?
The method works with any cartridge but all do not sound the best at an indicated 1.75 on the dial. As I mentioned I find the Ekstatik to be most musical at 2.1 grams (Linn recommendation 2.0). This is as indicated on the dial. I tried a range of tracking forces and this is where I felt it all came together. It still required the counterweight be moved out a little bit to not actually be over 2.1, and moving the counterweight does make a further small improvement to the music. The same is the case with Grado cartridges that are most musical closer to 1.5 grams (although it varies a bit from one unit to the next so it is worth trying between 1.5 and 1.7 grams). Any cartridge that tracks within the range of the dial will work best using this method.

Generally I feel you should start at the recommended tracking force from the cartridge manufacturer, or at the middle of the range if an optimum is not stated. Then try up and down .1 to .2 grams from that setting using the dial. There will be a setting where it is most musical and things seem to snap into focus. Small changes can be important here, I found most Akiva units to be most musical at 1.72 grams. Then get out the scale and set the counterweight to the same reading you have on the dial (again 2.1 for an Ekstatik, for example) and the music will improve further.

When I first did this I did not use the scale but after finding the best tracking force on the dial (1.75 with my Kandid) I measured the actual tracking force and found it to be 1.92. Changing the dial to make the scale it read 1.75 actually made the music worse. So I dialed it back to 1.75 and tried adjusting the counterweight by ear without measuring until I was happy with the sound. Then I measured it and it showed 1.76 grams. So if you want to be super precise you can adjust the counterweight by ear as well. But as I found it was always either the same or within .01 gram, and because I found .01 gram to make a pretty negligible difference, I just recommend most people set the counterweight by using the digital scale.
 
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ThomasOK

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I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. If you look at some of the Uber arms that are available today, all of them allow precise adjustment of azimuth, VTF, VTA and SRA…but you are going to tell us that these very arms don’t sound as great as the Ekos SE…
You know I live to make you happy.

So I must say "that these very arms don’t sound as great as the Ekos SE"!
 

Tendaberry

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If you look at some of the Uber arms that are available today, all of them allow precise adjustment of azimuth, VTF, VTA and SRA…but you are going to tell us that these very arms don’t sound as great as the Ekos SE…
Uber makes tonearms now? I thought they were only good at transporting people from A to B ;)
Anyway, I never felt any need to adjust Azimuth or SRA...
 
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Moomintroll

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As I say, interesting, you seem to the only one reporting that it doesn’t read higher than indicated, if balanced out. Just out of interest, have you checked the balance at 0g recently? @ThomasOK have you ever experienced this with an SE?

’troll
 

Moomintroll

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I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. If you look at some of the Uber arms that are available today, all of them allow precise adjustment of azimuth, VTF, VTA and SRA…but you are going to tell us that these very arms don’t sound as great as the Ekos SE
At the risk of further threadcreep…
I‘m sure I asked this on an earlier thread, but don’t recall ever seeing a reply. The only way anyone can know how these Uber arms compare with an Ekos SE is to compare them on an LP12 with the same cartridge. Has this ever been done, or is this just hearsay?

’troll
 

ThomasOK

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At the risk of further threadcreep…
I‘m sure I asked this on an earlier thread, but don’t recall ever seeing a reply. The only way anyone can know how these Uber arms compare with an Ekos SE is to compare them on an LP12 with the same cartridge. Has this ever been done, or is this just hearsay?

’troll
As far as I have been able to tell it is all hearsay. I have never seen anyone claim they have heard any of these arms in a direct comparison on an LP12 where everything is the same except the tonearm. As your post hints at, anything less has no validity.
 

ThomasOK

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As I say, interesting, you seem to the only one reporting that it doesn’t read higher than indicated, if balanced out. Just out of interest, have you checked the balance at 0g recently? @ThomasOK have you ever experienced this with an SE?

’troll
I agree, I have yet to see an Ekos SE balanced visually that didn't have a higher actual tracking force than the dial indicates. I just built a full Klimax LP12 a couple of weeks ago and it's new Ekos SE/1 still exhibited this behavior.
 
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Daveyf

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At the risk of further threadcreep…
I‘m sure I asked this on an earlier thread, but don’t recall ever seeing a reply. The only way anyone can know how these Uber arms compare with an Ekos SE is to compare them on an LP12 with the same cartridge. Has this ever been done, or is this just hearsay?

’troll
Let me answer the question. My audio group has done an 'AB' with a members Linn Klimax with Radikal 1 against another members Basis 2800 Signature fitted with a Superarm 9 and with both tables fitted with the same cartridge --a Lyra Etna SL. Now I know you are going to say it could be the table or ??, BUT the difference in SQ was significant enough to notice that the Basis was simply a lot more resolved in the bass!! At the moment, I dont think I have ever said that there is a better arm out there for the LINN than the EkosSE (unfortunately)...BUT that does NOT mean there are no better arms in existence. The AB we did was put down to the Linn arm as being the culprit. Here's the thing, can anyone say it was NOT!
I know that there are a number of folk here who will defend all Linn products come what may, fair enough, BUT please do so after having experienced what the competition offers...and not before!
 

Moomintroll

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@Daveyf thank you for responding. I’m not sure I can agree that you can attribute a difference solely to the Ekos SE, when, by admission the alternate arm is on a different turntable. If you want to, which you clearly do, then that is your prerogative. I think that all you can safely say is that there was a difference between the two combinations, that you heard as a more resolved bass. As someone who has used the Tunedem when choosing equipment, for more than 40 years, this means nothing to me.

As you say yourself, we’ll have to agree to disagree, but it would be appreciated if you did stop coming on here and going on about the Ekos SE. I think it fair to say, that everyone on here with one is happy with it. This is a Linn Owners Club, after all.

regards,

’troll
 

Daveyf

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@Daveyf thank you for responding. I’m not sure I can agree that you can attribute a difference solely to the Ekos SE, when, by admission the alternate arm is on a different turntable. If you want to, which you clearly do, then that is your prerogative. I think that all you can safely say is that there was a difference between the two combinations, that you heard as a more resolved bass. As someone who has used the Tunedem when choosing equipment, for more than 40 years, this means nothing to me.

As you say yourself, we’ll have to agree to disagree, but it would be appreciated if you did stop coming on here and going on about the Ekos SE. I think it fair to say, that everyone on here with one is happy with it. This is a Linn Owners Club, after all.

regards,

’troll
Fair enough. BUT I do think that you and others have been missing my points. Primarily, I am stating that the Ekos SE is way past its sale by date. Linn needs to address the arm failings and come out with a superior arm for their table. This thread touches on some of the failings of this design..and while Thomas may not be a believer in adjustments to an arm that will allow a VERY precise dial in of the cartridge set up, I am! If everyone believes that the Ekos SE is impossible for Linn to upgrade, then so be it! I happen to think that they have not only the ability to completely revise and improve but also that it is time to do so. ( IMHO, it has been time for several years now, but I do understand that as long as folks, like yourself, are perfectly happy with the old design, why bother...IOW no incentive to improve!!)
Lastly, as a Linn club, I am surprised that folks are not egging Linn on to further improvements ( like I am)...and the old Ekos SE is a great place to start! IMHO.
 

Moomintroll

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Fair enough. BUT I do think that you and others have been missing my points.
Ah, now you’re moving the goalposts! I do believe that evolution of the Ekos SE has also been discussed in a thread you contributed to and I’m pretty sure several of us said that, as and when Linn offer an upgrade, we’ll all be forming a disorderly queue to hear it. In the mean time…

’troll
 

Daveyf

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Ah, now you’re moving the goalposts! I do believe that evolution of the Ekos SE has also been discussed in a thread you contributed to and I’m pretty sure several of us said that, as and when Linn offer an upgrade, we’ll all be forming a disorderly queue to hear it. In the mean time…

’troll
I don't think so. I am stating the same thing I have done on all threads. IF you were to re-read my posts with a less biased opinion, then maybe you would see where I am coming from. Look, I get it, you own and enjoy the Ekos SE. Nothing wrong in that. I also understand that you really would prefer not to have to go to the expense ( and it could be considerable) of having to do another upgrade when Linn re-designs their top flite arm. I totally understand. BUT please be open to the possibility that this arm is the current weak-link in the chain when it comes to the Linn turntable platform.
 

ThomasOK

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while Thomas may not be a believer in adjustments to an arm that will allow a VERY precise dial in of the cartridge set up, I am!
OK, let's start with this. I never indicated any such thinking and I'm pretty sure I have a reputation for making quite precise adjustments to the arms I set up. The real problem with your post is claiming that you are a believer in such when you own a WTA arm. Sure you don't have to worry about the tracking force dial not matching what is on a digital scale, but that is because there is no dial. But getting the tracking force right is a royal pain in the a$$ as every time you move the arm you have to let the silicone settle. Setting the height, alignment and anti-skating are all also rather difficult, again because the bearing is a pair of strings and a paddle or golf ball suspended in thick fluid. There is really very little precision in that arm and all adjustments have to be checked and redone multiple times to get it all right after things have settled. Also I hope you don't end up with a problem with the arm wiring as one of my customers recently did after doing a hack job of trying to install a cartridge. He made two headshell leads so short that my thought was to rewire the arm. A call to the distributor came back with the information that you couldn't fun new wiring down the tube and that replacement tubes for the older versions were not available! Options were to trash the unit and get a replacement or figure out another way to fix it. The customer didn't want to spend new arm money so I took a page out of the Rega handbook and soldered a set of normal thickness headshell leads to the thin wires that run through the tube (luckily there was enough left coming out the tube). Even that was a major hassle as the way they color coded the wires faded with age so you couldn't tell them apart. I had to use a meter to trace them to the output and then solder the right tage to the right wires. It wasn't only the arm that was a problem. He also couldn't get the platter to work properly. This was due to their unique and unusual bearing housing that needed to be fitted in just the right direction to work. Normally you wouldn't think that would be a problem because the manufacturer would take care of it. But on this table the bearing housing was free, a little too free, to rotate in its mounting! This had allowed it to rotate to where the bearing didn't work right at all and wobbled all over the place. I found out that the non-fixed mounting was also normal but it was usually a fairly snug fit. This was not, it was quite loose. Positioning it in the right direction and using a little glue took care of that problem. I explained my suggestions to the customer and he was quite happy with the idea of getting his WT table back up and running without a heavy expense. He was even more happy when he heard the results.

So it really is a little much to be preached at about the Ekos SE not being precise enough, apparently mainly because you are so stuck on the worthless adjustment of azimuth or because you just can't figure an Ekos out.

As to the comparison, any comparison with two variables is instantly invalid except to show what you hear as different by changing multiple things. There is no way to narrow it down to a specific part. Beyond that I would expect that there were more variables than the two you mention. Were both turntables on one rack? Then one or both were compromised. I'm sure the Basis prefers a different type of stand than what is optimum for the LP12. Were they setup by the same person? If not you will have inconsistencies in setup. You might even have inconsistencies if it was setup by the same person. So the comparison is really no comparison.

But I find it amusing you used the Basis as an example. I have worked on a Basis, it was a Debut MkV with vacuum hold down and their top arm at the time. This was quite some time ago but it was supposed to be a step above the 2000 series. I was not very impressed with the table nor the arm. It wasn't a very musical combination. The customer wasn't all that happy with it either as he had traded it in. For what, you ask? Why a Klimax LP12 with a horrid Ekos on it, actually an Ekos 2. He was quite happy with the improvement.

Lastly, when you design and build something right in the first place it doesn't need frequent change. Recent age is not a measure of quality and length of time on the market unchanged is not a bad sign either. This is not a banana, a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk, there is no such thing as past dated. Damn, when are they going to get around to redesigning those outdated Stradivari violins?
 
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