Linn Owners

Re set tracking weight on EKOS SE/1 tonearm

Daveyf

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OK, let's start with this. I never indicated any such thinking and I'm pretty sure I have a reputation for making quite precise adjustments to the arms I set up. The real problem with your post is claiming that you are a believer in such when you own a WTA arm. Sure you don't have to worry about the tracking force dial not matching what is on a digital scale, but that is because there is no dial. But getting the tracking force right is a royal pain in the a$$ as every time you move the arm you have to let the silicone settle. Setting the height, alignment and anti-skating are all also rather difficult, again because the bearing is a pair of strings and a paddle or golf ball suspended in thick fluid. There is really very little precision in that arm and all adjustments have to be checked and redone multiple times to get it all right after things have settled. Also I hope you don't end up with a problem with the arm wiring as one of my customers recently did after doing a hack job of trying to install a cartridge. He made two headshell leads so short that my thought was to rewire the arm. A call to the distributor came back with the information that you couldn't fun new wiring down the tube and that replacement tubes for the older versions were not available! Options were to trash the unit and get a replacement or figure out another way to fix it. The customer didn't want to spend new arm money so I took a page out of the Rega handbook and soldered a set of normal thickness headshell leads to the thin wires that run through the tube (luckily there was enough left coming out the tube). Even that was a major hassle as the way they color coded the wires faded with age so you couldn't tell them apart. I had to use a meter to trace them to the output and then solder the right tage to the right wires. It wasn't only the arm that was a problem. He also couldn't get the platter to work properly. This was due to their unique and unusual bearing housing that needed to be fitted in just the right direction to work. Normally you wouldn't think that would be a problem because the manufacturer would take care of it. But on this table the bearing housing was free, a little too free, to rotate in its mounting! This had allowed it to rotate to where the bearing didn't work right at all and wobbled all over the place. I found out that the non-fixed mounting was also normal but it was usually a fairly snug fit. This was not, it was quite loose. Positioning it in the right direction and using a little glue took care of that problem. I explained my suggestions to the customer and he was quite happy with the idea of getting his WT table back up and running without a heavy expense. He was even more happy when he heard the results.

So it really is a little much to be preached at about the Ekos SE not being precise enough, apparently mainly because you are so stuck on the worthless adjustment of azimuth or because you just can't figure an Ekos out.

As to the comparison, and comparison with two variables is instantly invalid except to show what you hear as different by changing multiple things. There is no way to narrow it down to a specific part. Beyond that I would expect that there were more variables than the two you mention. Were both turntables on one rack? Then one or both were compromised. I'm sure the Basis prefers a different type of stand than what is optimum for the LP12. Were they setup by the same person? If not you will have inconsistencies in setup. You might even have inconsistencies if it was setup by the same person. So the comparison is really no comparison.

But I find it amusing you used the Basis as an example. I have worked on a Basis, it was a Debut MkV with vacuum hold down and their top arm at the time. This was quite some time ago but it was supposed to be a step above the 2000 series. I was not very impressed with the table nor the arm. It wasn't a very musical combination. The customer wasn't all that happy with it either as he had traded it in. For what, you ask? Why a Klimax LP12 with a horrid Ekos on it, actually an Ekos 2. He was quite happy with the improvement.

Lastly, when you design and build something right in the first place it doesn't need frequent change. Recent age is not a measure of quality and length of time on the market unchanged is not a bad sign either. This is not a banana, a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk, there is no such thing as past dated. Damn, when are they going to get around to redesigning those outdated Stradivari violins?
Nice justifications for your points...although how you set up an arm that has minimal set up calibrations and those that it does have are inaccurate to start with, is an interesting point!
Let's just put it this way, you believe what you want to believe and I will believe what I want to, based on what my ears tell me.
BTW, i am in no way suggesting that the arm I currently use, which is a version of the WTA but highly modded, is in any way a superior made product and competes with the arms in the highest echelon. It is more than competitive on the Linn platform, BUT it is like the old war horse, had its day!
The AB with the Linn vs. the Basis was done correctly, the only real difference between the two was the arm and the basic table ( yes the Linn was optimized and so was the Basis...unless you are going to say that the set up guy was no good...:p). Could the Basis platform be superior sounding to the Linn Klimax platform, and the Ekos SE was the star of the show...you tell me??
You worked on a Debut MkV with what arm...an original Basis Vector? This arm was known to have issues, which is why it was quickly upgraded.
BTW, when was the last time you listened to one of the Basis turntables, and I mean one of their current line up, not from decades ago?? Let me tell you, If it was in budget, the Basis 2500 Signature and up, with one of their Superarm 9 arms, would be replacing my Linn in a heart beat! I know a fellow a'phlle who replaced his Linn Klimax with Radikal 2 with a Basis Inspiration with Superarm 9...trust me you don't want to ever listen to that incredible combo...specially as a loyal Linn dealer!!!;)
 
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Make it SO

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The Basis Superarm 9 sells for around $17495. Linn’s Ekos SE sells for around $5645. It’s hardly a fair comparison.

The Ekos SE really should be considered purely as a carrier for Linn’s 3-point fixing cartridges. With other manufacturer’s cartridges you’ll almost certainly run into a problem or two. That’s not due to fault or omission in the design of the arm, its simply that its being used out of context. If Linn felt that the Ekos SE was limiting the performance of their cartridges they would have done something about it by now.

Within the Linn performance hierarchy there’s a consensus among users and dealers that it’s bearing first, power supply second and then sub-chassis. Unless you can get a tonearm manufacturer to produce an arm with a Linn fitting, you won’t be able to use the Keel sub-chassis and the difference that makes to overall SQ is greater than a tonearm or cartridge upgrade. Perhaps you have managed somehow to get your WT tonearm on to a Keel and the fit isn’t all it could be? Maybe you’re not using a Keel at all?

The only constructive thing I can suggest if you want to keep the LP12, is to try to source a used Naim Aro tonearm as I think it has the kind of adjustments you’re looking for. At least you can then source a ‘Keel for Aro’ sub-chassis to enable you to better mate the tonearm to the turntable. You may have tried this combo before and not liked it but if not, perhaps it’s worth exploring? Peter Swain at Cymbiosis in the UK may be able to help in getting hold of a used Aro for you.
 

Daveyf

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The Basis Superarm 9 sells for around $17495. Linn’s Ekos SE sells for around $5645. It’s hardly a fair comparison.

The Ekos SE really should be considered purely as a carrier for Linn’s 3-point fixing cartridges. With other manufacturer’s cartridges you’ll almost certainly run into a problem or two. That’s not due to fault or omission in the design of the arm, its simply that its being used out of context. If Linn felt that the Ekos SE was limiting the performance of their cartridges they would have done something about it by now.

Within the Linn performance hierarchy there’s a consensus among users and dealers that it’s bearing first, power supply second and then sub-chassis. Unless you can get a tonearm manufacturer to produce an arm with a Linn fitting, you won’t be able to use the Keel sub-chassis and the difference that makes to overall SQ is greater than a tonearm or cartridge upgrade. Perhaps you have managed somehow to get your WT tonearm on to a Keel and the fit isn’t all it could be? Maybe you’re not using a Keel at all?

The only constructive thing I can suggest if you want to keep the LP12, is to try to source a used Naim Aro tonearm as I think it has the kind of adjustments you’re looking for. At least you can then source a ‘Keel for Aro’ sub-chassis to enable you to better mate the tonearm to the turntable. You may have tried this combo before and not liked it but if not, perhaps it’s worth exploring? Peter Swain at Cymbiosis in the UK may be able to help in getting hold of a used Aro for you.
Thank you for your advice. I have heard an Aro on a Keel, there is no advantage over my current set-up.
Keeping the LP12 is up in the air at the moment. I have no dealer support anywhere near where I live and there are some competing products that I think are far closer to SOTA that have an interest for me, albeit like you said, at much much higher price points.
 

Mr Kandid

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Thank you for your advice. I have heard an Aro on a Keel, there is no advantage over my current set-up.
Keeping the LP12 is up in the air at the moment. I have no dealer support anywhere near where I live and there are some competing products that I think are far closer to SOTA that have an interest for me, albeit like you said, at much much higher price points.
I’d have thought with all your experience and technical know how it wouldn’t be rocket science to fettle your own deck without a dealer being nearby.
the required tools and set up guides are available online.
 

Daveyf

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I’d have thought with all your experience and technical know how it wouldn’t be rocket science to fettle your own deck without a dealer being nearby.
the required tools and set up guides are available online.
Why would I want to do that??? :confused:
 

Mr Kandid

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It is anyhow! Are you going somewhere with this, or just trolling?
No need for that.
I simply suggested as your such a grand authority on technicalities you wouldnt need a dealer to do it for you as your obviously so better experienced.
If you want to take that attitude and behave like a noob then you’ve shot yourself in the foot.
Wow!
 
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Daveyf

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No need for that.
I simply suggested as your such a grand authority on technicalities you wouldnt need a dealer to do it for you as your obviously so better experienced.
If you want to take that attitude and behave like a noob then you’ve shot yourself in the foot.
Wow!
Like I suspected...just trolling.
 
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quinn_t

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The Basis Superarm 9 sells for around $17495. Linn’s Ekos SE sells for around $5645. It’s hardly a fair comparison.
I do not think the cost is the main factor here, it is most important to me is if the Basis Superarm 9 can beat the Ekos SE musically on the LP12. Otherwise, it is pointless for me to invest 17K on such a tone arm.
 

Make it SO

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With respect, I think that level of price difference matters to many of us.

Unfortunately, we’ll never know the answer to the question which is best on an LP12 because the Superarm 9 is too long, of too high a mass and there’s no current means of fitting it to the Keel sub-chassis. For under $6k the lower mass Vector 4 tonearm from Basis is potentially a better fit, but again, it won’t fit to the Keel as it is.

Considering Linn have had many years of experience in developing and evolving the sub-chassis, tonearm and cartridge relationship, the idea that a third-party arm, however well it performs on other turntables, can better the Ekos SE in Linn’s ‘holy trinity,’ is difficult to believe. So often it's not the performance of an individual component that matters so much as the symbiosis between a group of products. When expressly designed to work together the final performance is greater than the sum of their parts.

I completely understand why some may not like the presentation of a Linn cartridge in a Linn arm. Ultimately all products are a compromise of some sort. You can never achieve excellence in all parameters of design because some parameters are at odds with each other. The compromise is in the eyes, ears and personal preferences of the designer and as end-users we choose products in which those compromises are to our personal taste. There’s no one way that’s right or wrong – they are just different.

So, if you’re a fan of Lyra, Koetsu, Miyajima, My Sonic Lab, Clearaudio cartridges, etc, etc, I think you need to look for a turntable/arm from a manufacturer other than Linn and enjoy that compromise for what it is.
 

Daveyf

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With respect, I think that level of price difference matters to many of us.

Unfortunately, we’ll never know the answer to the question which is best on an LP12 because the Superarm 9 is too long, of too high a mass and there’s no current means of fitting it to the Keel sub-chassis. For under $6k the lower mass Vector 4 tonearm from Basis is potentially a better fit, but again, it won’t fit to the Keel as it is.

Considering Linn have had many years of experience in developing and evolving the sub-chassis, tonearm and cartridge relationship, the idea that a third-party arm, however well it performs on other turntables, can better the Ekos SE in Linn’s ‘holy trinity,’ is difficult to believe. So often it's not the performance of an individual component that matters so much as the symbiosis between a group of products. When expressly designed to work together the final performance is greater than the sum of their parts.

I completely understand why some may not like the presentation of a Linn cartridge in a Linn arm. Ultimately all products are a compromise of some sort. You can never achieve excellence in all parameters of design because some parameters are at odds with each other. The compromise is in the eyes, ears and personal preferences of the designer and as end-users we choose products in which those compromises are to our personal taste. There’s no one way that’s right or wrong – they are just different.

So, if you’re a fan of Lyra, Koetsu, Miyajima, My Sonic Lab, Clearaudio cartridges, etc, etc, I think you need to look for a turntable/arm from a manufacturer other than Linn and enjoy that compromise for what it is.
Ok, but you do realize that you have just brought up most of the best cartridges on the market!
Although I happen to disagree, and do think they can be made to work well on the Linn platform.
 

saxo

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The Linn Ekos SE arm is the best arm Linn has produced so far. As it stands the Ekos SE compares well with other reputable arms on an LP12. I have had Naim Aro which is also very good, but not like Ekos SE; I have heard Rega RB3000 fitted to LP12, it is well designed but does not play as well with LP12 as Ekos SE. There is no universal arm that is always superior, it is a suggestive choice depending on preferences and sensitivities felt. Most often very good turntables and arms are patiently optimised to be tuned together; not forgetting the cartridge couplings.
The main thing is, that the music is good!
 

ThomasOK

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With respect, I think that level of price difference matters to many of us.

Unfortunately, we’ll never know the answer to the question which is best on an LP12 because the Superarm 9 is too long, of too high a mass and there’s no current means of fitting it to the Keel sub-chassis. For under $6k the lower mass Vector 4 tonearm from Basis is potentially a better fit, but again, it won’t fit to the Keel as it is.

Considering Linn have had many years of experience in developing and evolving the sub-chassis, tonearm and cartridge relationship, the idea that a third-party arm, however well it performs on other turntables, can better the Ekos SE in Linn’s ‘holy trinity,’ is difficult to believe. So often it's not the performance of an individual component that matters so much as the symbiosis between a group of products. When expressly designed to work together the final performance is greater than the sum of their parts.

I completely understand why some may not like the presentation of a Linn cartridge in a Linn arm. Ultimately all products are a compromise of some sort. You can never achieve excellence in all parameters of design because some parameters are at odds with each other. The compromise is in the eyes, ears and personal preferences of the designer and as end-users we choose products in which those compromises are to our personal taste. There’s no one way that’s right or wrong – they are just different.

So, if you’re a fan of Lyra, Koetsu, Miyajima, My Sonic Lab, Clearaudio cartridges, etc, etc, I think you need to look for a turntable/arm from a manufacturer other than Linn and enjoy that compromise for what it is.
While I agree with much of what you say I do have customers who are quite happy with the perfromance of their Koetsu or Lyra cartridges on their Klimax LP12/Ekos SE, as well as some with mid to upper level Dynavector and Ortofon MCs. In some cases the Linn heavy counterweight might be recommended but otherwise the pairings are sounding just fine.
 
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sktn77a

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While I agree with much of what you say I do have customers who are quite happy with the perfromance of their Koetsu or Lyra cartridges

Oh, how I wish I could be "quite happy" with a Koetsu! ($$$$$$$$$)

:cry:
 
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