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Really? What's the point in Tune Dem before SO?

SnapperMike

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I believe it works for some and is the best place to start with any Space Optimisation. I've read Linn's writings on Tune Dem. https://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/FAQ_-_Tune_Dem

However, what if you're tone deaf like me? Perhaps I'm not but I'm thinking I might be!

Over the last couple of years I've added 3 different Linn loudspeakers to my listening room. I've attempted the Tune Dem method with these speakers before applying any SOv2. That is to find their 'ideal' location before reverting them to my 'practical' location and feeding that info into SO. I read about people adjusting speaker position an inch this way or that and then even finer tuning down to the half centimetre. When I attempt this, I could move the speaker a foot one way or the other and hear exactly the same thing. It's so frustrating.

Since I introduced the Keltiks last week I've been fannying about (Scottish term for calculated scientific experiments  ;) ) with their placement within the room using the Tune Dem method as Linn recommend. Again with little or no success in finding that 'ideal' location.

What I decided to do was create three SOv2 profiles. Two of those were modelled on the speakers being in their 'ideal' location some 0.8m and 1.1m into the room. Then placed back into their 'practical' location before asking SOv2 to do its calculations. The third optimisation was placing the Keltiks in their 'practical' location, some 0.58m into the room and let SO work as though I didn't know their 'ideal' location. So now I have the three different SO calculations but when I switch between them they all sound the same to me. So, what's the point in me using Tune Dem to find the best position when I can't tell the difference in a foot here and a foot there? I'm pretty sure I'm using SO correctly and so I've come to the conclusion that my ears and brain are not working well enough together to use Tune Dem successfully. I let a Linn retailer set up my SO using Konfig's SOv1 when he installed my ASH and AEB-I several months ago. In the end I didn't keep it as I felt a straight SOv2 calculation did a better job.

I know I'm possibly over thinking this and I should really just let the music come to me, flow over, caress and sooth me but that's difficult to do when I'm thinking about it. However, sometimes I find myself tapping my feet along to the music oblivious to the fact I'm doing that. That perhaps is my tell-tale sign that the sound is working for me?

Does anyone have a similar experience and how did you deal with it? Other than getting @Paulssurround over?  :)

Mike.

 
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Mike - please don’t misunderstand my comments. With correct speaker position SO is not necessary IMO.

The problem is finding that exact spot where everything comes together. Since there are so many variables it takes time and patience and you tackle one issue at a time. If you’re interested I can gladly talk you thru the process over the phone.

My speakers are 84cms now from the front wall and I don’t feel the need for SO. I wish I could have them a foot further apart from each other but that’s not possible with our furniture so ill leave that for the next apartment.


Adsm/1 >> Akurate 4200/3200/3200 >> Aktiv Akurate 242 (mark 1) Silvers/K400

 
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I'm  with Zee -  I do use Tunedem -  but really as a process for finding that spot where everything comes together. What I would suggest is to put the Keltiks hard up against the back wall and make notes as to what you hear. Listen critically and try to pick out and describe the various threads. You will have now described a base line as to what they shouldn't sound like. Next, bring them out as far as is practically possible and do the same - they should sound very different - but again most likely what they shouldn't sound like. Write down what you hear. Go half way between the two, do the same, write it down. Now go half the distance again - both in front and behind of the last point. At one of these point you will start to hear things coming together  - this is where the writing down really helps. From this point in you are down the cm movements and them mm. Dont get hung up on the playing the first 20 seconds over an over again - it's valuable but I find it better to work with a piece of music that you know really well - sometimes one play is sufficient. The spot where everything comes together is not about "having an ear" - it is about spotting where everything works with each other. My golden rule is that once you're happy then leave it alone! Remember that it is your system and the music is right when you perceive it as right - and that may well be different than the perception of another person.

 

hannson.design

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Snapper,

The reason you’re struggling is because you’re listening to the “sound” the system makes. TuneDem is about listening to tunes, not sounds. Moving a speaker one inch (25mm) will do very little to the sound, but will usually effect the tune so that instruments sound either more (or less) in tune. Watch  Les Dawson play the piano for an exaggerated example of a tune played out of tune. Our systems will not sound this much out of tune, but it gives you an idea what to listen for. Systematically move your speakers left/right and back/forward until you find the point where they sound most in tune.

If you still struggle, go and hear live acoustic music to get a feel for the naturalness of a tuned instrument.

Edit: I’ve found a better Les Dawson example.

 
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akamatsu

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I assume you have seen this:

https://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/images/d/d5/Kelt_akt_user_man.PDF

It says 10 cm to 30 cm to the front wall, and at least 45 cm from any corner. I would go with closer to 10 than 30 cm. Once you get them positioned within Linn's guidelines, move them out and in (closer and further apart from each other) until the imaging and soundstage are acceptable. Then level the speakers, get them nice a snug, then listen for a while. Apply SO choosing "speakers are in their ideal location." Live with the setup for a few days.

The next steps would be to fine tune the positioning by small amounts, but only as needed, and with SO off of course. You may find little or no difference. Move them front to back and listen for boominess in the bass, and listen for the tune of the bass, that is, follow the tune of a bass guitar.

With the Keltiks, I don't see much need for virtual tunedem as the speaker positions are much more set than with other Linn speakers. There just wouldn't be much difference between 10 and 30 cm from the front wall using virtual Tunedem.

I think the key is to go slowly. Our ears (brains) need time to adjust. As we know, we hear what we expect. This shouldn't be ignored.

It will take some back and forth if you want to rely on this forum for completing the setup.

Lastly, I'm not an expert. I'm just going off of my recent experience setting up Akubariks.

 
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akamatsu

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Snapper,

The reason you’re struggling is because you’re listening to the “sound” the system makes. TuneDem is about listening to tunes, not sounds. Moving a speaker one inch (25mm) will do very little to the sound, but will usually effect the tune so that instruments sound either more (or less) in tune. Watch  Les Dawson play the piano for an exaggerated example of a tune played out of tune. Our systems will not sound this much out of tune, but it gives you an idea what to listen for. Systematically move your speakers left/right and back/forward until you find the point where they sound most in tune.

If you still struggle, go and hear live acoustic music to get a feel for the naturalness of a tuned instrument.
Well said. Would you like to take the lead on this, as you seem like someone from whom I could learn? Also, please check my reply for where I may have missed the mark. One thing that I have found to be paramount concerning the tune is the precision in which speakers are positioned and leveled. I went so far as to get a laser level and level the speakers with each other. Does this sound about right to you?

 

Elad Repooc

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Here's a quick rundown:

I would imagine these speakers should be placed close to the wall to begin (as close as seems OK for your setup), identical distance from the wall to the front corner, with no toe-in, and roughly (at this point) equidistant from the listening position in terms of width between the speakers.

Next, using a piece of music (any will do, quite frankly pop music and stuff like that works great, use Zevon), play the track twice for anywhere from 10-30 seconds while silently repeating the tune in its entirety (as a whole) in your head. Move each speaker out from the wall in a 10cm increment (approx. 4") and listen to the tune again.

Also, personally I like to use a wide variety of tracks, during this process, in fact I will often pick things I am completely unfamiliar with in an effort to ensure I'm really just following the tune and what actually sounds better. This flies in the face of some other methods I know but the fact is if you use a bunch of different types of music you are more likely to get better results.

Don't focus on things like how much bass, etc. If it's easier to hear/understand/follow along with/silently repeat the tune, then do the same thing again (move the speaker out 4") until it sounds worse, or in other words the tune is lost. If it sounds worse in the first move, then go back to where you started and halve the distance (5cm/2").

In a sense it's listening for when things sound worse as much as better. Because when it sounds worse, you go back to where you started until you are moving the speaker in increments of as little as 1/8" (I usually get it down to 1/8"). 

Once you've figured out the proper distance from the wall (length modes of the room), it's time to do the same thing but now with the side walls (width modes of the room). If the walls or your placement are not supportive of keeping the speakers in the same relative distance from each side wall, then use the distance between the speakers to start, and move them out in 10cm increments until they again, sound worse and don't play the tune as well. Again, I usually get this down to about 1/8" increments.*

Next, is toe in. It will be pretty apparent if the speakers sound better with toe in or not, I usually have found (through experience) that most Linn speakers require either very little toe-in, or none at all, though I have set them up with toe-in because it sounded better given the room and overall placement. Do the same thing here (i.e. toe the speaker in 4" from the original length mode you found sounded best). If the speakers sound better with 4" of toe, try another 2" until, again, the tune is lost and you go back to what sounded better.

Finally you should level the speakers and ensure they are not rocking on the spikes, once you've found a final length, width, and height position. After leveling the speakers I try to ensure the tweeters are exactly the same distance from the floor (with the speaker remaining level) by adjusting the spike height accordingly. Some people here, with certain speakers, might deviate from keeping the speakers level in an effort to "rake" the speakers back a bit. I've found this vary rarely actually sounds better than ensuring the speakers are level and that the tweeters are the same height from the floor. Typically I have also found that obsessing over the spike height is largely unnecessary, it is sufficient to ensure the tweeter is the same distance from the ground.

There isn't a speaker I've come across that I couldn't follow this procedure with (for the most part) and get not only typically great results, but a speaker that sounds more free of the room and more involving to listen to.

*This step can be avoided or bypassed entirely depending on the dispersion of the loudspeaker and the overall placement in the room, however I have found (especially with older speakers which tend to have narrower dispersion) that this usually makes sense to do.

 

akamatsu

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Here's a quick rundown:

I would imagine these speakers should be placed close to the wall to begin (as close as seems OK for your setup), identical distance from the wall to the front corner, with no toe-in, and roughly (at this point) equidistant from the listening position in terms of width between the speakers.

Next, using a piece of music (any will do, quite frankly pop music and stuff like that works great, use Zevon), play the track twice for anywhere from 10-30 seconds while silently repeating the tune in its entirety (as a whole) in your head. Move each speaker out from the wall in a 10cm increment (approx. 4") and listen to the tune again.

Also, personally I like to use a wide variety of tracks, during this process, in fact I will often pick things I am completely unfamiliar with in an effort to ensure I'm really just following the tune and what actually sounds better. This flies in the face of some other methods I know but the fact is if you use a bunch of different types of music you are more likely to get better results.

Don't focus on things like how much bass, etc. If it's easier to hear/understand/follow along with/silently repeat the tune, then do the same thing again (move the speaker out 4") until it sounds worse, or in other words the tune is lost. If it sounds worse in the first move, then go back to where you started and halve the distance (5cm/2").

In a sense it's listening for when things sound worse as much as better. Because when it sounds worse, you go back to where you started until you are moving the speaker in increments of as little as 1/8" (I usually get it down to 1/8"). 

Once you've figured out the proper distance from the wall (length modes of the room), it's time to do the same thing but now with the side walls (width modes of the room). If the walls or your placement are not supportive of keeping the speakers in the same relative distance from each side wall, then use the distance between the speakers to start, and move them out in 10cm increments until they again, sound worse and don't play the tune as well. Again, I usually get this down to about 1/8" increments.*

Next, is toe in. It will be pretty apparent if the speakers sound better with toe in or not, I usually have found (through experience) that most Linn speakers require either very little toe-in, or none at all, though I have set them up with toe-in because it sounded better given the room and overall placement. Do the same thing here (i.e. toe the speaker in 4" from the original length mode you found sounded best). If the speakers sound better with 4" of toe, try another 2" until, again, the tune is lost and you go back to what sounded better.

Finally you should level the speakers and ensure they are not rocking on the spikes, once you've found a final length, width, and height position. After leveling the speakers I try to ensure the tweeters are exactly the same distance from the floor (with the speaker remaining level) by adjusting the spike height accordingly. Some people here, with certain speakers, might deviate from keeping the speakers level in an effort to "rake" the speakers back a bit. I've found this vary rarely actually sounds better than ensuring the speakers are level and that the tweeters are the same height from the floor. Typically I have also found that obsessing over the spike height is largely unnecessary, it is sufficient to ensure the tweeter is the same distance from the ground.

There isn't a speaker I've come across that I couldn't follow this procedure with (for the most part) and get not only typically great results, but a speaker that sounds more free of the room and more involving to listen to.

*This step can be avoided or bypassed entirely depending on the dispersion of the loudspeaker and the overall placement in the room, however I have found (especially with older speakers which tend to have narrower dispersion) that this usually makes sense to do.
Do you find that either the tune is there or it isn't? I seem to have this experience of music to where I'm either feeling it or I'm not.

For speaker placement, I've found that the tune of the bass seems to change more with speaker position than higher frequencies. Is this your experience? Or am I off the mark?

 

Moomintroll

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Do you find that either the tune is there or it isn't? I seem to have this experience of music to where I'm either feeling it or I'm not.

For speaker placement, I've found that the tune of the bass seems to change more with speaker position than higher frequencies. Is this your experience? Or am I off the mark?
I think I know what you mean and is, possibly, just a matter of perception. I find that if an improvement is made, then it’s apparent by the tune being easier to follow, but if you went back to the previous state, you could easily perceive it as just tuneless in comparison to what you’ve just heard. I experienced that very forceably when auditioning the new KDSM - going back to the Katalyst model, it was very apparent that the tune just wasn’t there in comparison.

Speaker placement - yes I agree. I liken speaker positioning to a first step in optimising the space, in that you’re positioning the speaker to minimise the impact of room modes. Many years ago, Linn reps used to say “get the bass right, everything else follows” or words to that effect. 
(Apologies if anyone thinks I’m spouting pseudoscience- I just can’t help it)

’troll

 

akamatsu

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I think I know what you mean and is, possibly, just a matter of perception. I find that if an improvement is made, then it’s apparent by the tune being easier to follow, but if you went back to the previous state, you could easily perceive it as just tuneless in comparison to what you’ve just heard. I experienced that very forceably when auditioning the new KDSM - going back to the Katalyst model, it was very apparent that the tune just wasn’t there in comparison.

Speaker placement - yes I agree. I liken speaker positioning to a first step in optimising the space, in that you’re positioning the speaker to minimise the impact of room modes. Many years ago, Linn reps used to say “get the bass right, everything else follows” or words to that effect. 
(Apologies if anyone thinks I’m spouting pseudoscience- I just can’t help it)

’troll
Thanks. I'm still learning this stuff as I've used but only four pairs of speakers in my main system for the past 30 years. What you said about perception seems to fit my experience. I've gotten used to a certain level of tune, and anything less occurs as "tuneless." So the accuracy of the tune varies, but our perception has a threshold.

Edit: I hope all this is helping the OP as well as myself. :)

 
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With correct speaker position SO is not necessary IMO
Thanks Zee. It sounds like you have a room that suits your hifi very well. I certainly can't listen to my speakers without any SO as they are too boomy...even the wee Katans! If you're up for it we could speak over Facebook? Do you have a preference for day/time of the week to do that?

I'm  with Zee -  I do use Tunedem -  but really as a process for finding that spot where everything comes together. What I would suggest is to put the Keltiks hard up against the back wall and make notes as to what you hear. Listen critically and try to pick out and describe the various threads. You will have now described a base line as to what they shouldn't sound like. Next, bring them out as far as is practically possible and do the same - they should sound very different - but again most likely what they shouldn't sound like. Write down what you hear. Go half way between the two, do the same, write it down. Now go half the distance again - both in front and behind of the last point. At one of these point you will start to hear things coming together  - this is where the writing down really helps. From this point in you are down the cm movements and them mm. Dont get hung up on the playing the first 20 seconds over an over again - it's valuable but I find it better to work with a piece of music that you know really well - sometimes one play is sufficient. The spot where everything comes together is not about "having an ear" - it is about spotting where everything works with each other. My golden rule is that once you're happy then leave it alone! Remember that it is your system and the music is right when you perceive it as right - and that may well be different than the perception of another person.
Thanks Dasher, I'm determined to conquer this! Your idea of note taking makes perfect sense. I'll report back in due course!

Watch  Les Dawson play the piano for an exaggerated example of a tune played out of tune.
Damn you! I continued to watch Les Dawson in YouTube video's well into the night!

Thanks for the tips. I shall put them to the test this weekend. I just hope that I'm not going to get frustrated again.

It will take some back and forth if you want to rely on this forum for completing the setup.
Thanks Michael. Yes, I'm determined to put in the time and effort to get this right. I even found a couple of posts you started and contributed to on the same subject that are very helpful: 

Here's a quick rundown:
Haha, I'd hate to be the one reading your long extended version! Wow!, that's a great help Elad. I shall get to work on this over the weekend and have a good play. There's no rush to get it finished. It's all quite a learning curve.

Edit: I hope all this is helping the OP as well as myself. :)
Absolutely I am!  :D

 

hannson.design

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Well said. Would you like to take the lead on this, as you seem like someone from whom I could learn? Also, please check my reply for where I may have missed the mark. One thing that I have found to be paramount concerning the tune is the precision in which speakers are positioned and leveled. I went so far as to get a laser level and level the speakers with each other. Does this sound about right to you?
Thank you akamatsu! What you said was ok, apart from the bit about “boominess”, which is a quantitative metric, when the focus should be on qualitative factors. Listening for “how much” rather than “how good” will likely put you in a position where you begin to make additional compensatory changes which take you even further way from a tuneful setup. When bass is tuneful our focus is drawn towards the musical elements in the piece and the sound elements are much less noticeable.

Something I often do, to prevent myself from being distracted by the level of bass, is listen to an acoustic guitar piece, listening to the tunefulness of the whole range of notes. When the system sounds in tune, the bass will automagically have sorted itself out!

 
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hannson.design

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Do you find that either the tune is there or it isn't? I seem to have this experience of music to where I'm either feeling it or I'm not.

For speaker placement, I've found that the tune of the bass seems to change more with speaker position than higher frequencies. Is this your experience? Or am I off the mark?
There’s always a tune, it’s just a matter of degrees. If you’re not “feeling the tune”, maybe you’re not actually listening to the pitch of the notes, but something else which you call “the tune”? Tune Dem isn’t a way of listening to music, it’s an evaluation method. When you’ve finished tuning the system you’re free to listen to whatever in any way you prefer, in the sound knowledge that your system is providing the most enjoyable and engrossing music possible.

You’re correct, it’s easier to detect tune errors in the bass. Bass notes have more harmonics within our hearing range than notes of a higher frequency, so our ear/brain system has more to work with in detecting pitch errors.

 
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SnapperMike

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There’s always a tune, it’s just a matter of degrees. If you’re not “feeling the tune”, maybe you’re not actually listening to the pitch of the notes, but something else which you call “the tune”?
This may be a daft question. However, does everyone hear the best tune when the speakers are in their best position or does the tune appear to be more tuneful for different people with differing speaker positions? So what's best for you tune wise will be best for everyone or not?

Mike.

 
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Everybody above has given great advice, follow it. All I'm going to say is the opposite of what I've said in various cable threads. There are super smellers, super tasters, super hearers, which means the corollary is true. I've had many folks say they don't care about hifi, never notice my "spectacular" life changing upgrades, but they still enjoy the music. Have you heard the differences in your various upgrades? There's a blessing in not being able to second guess you system. 

 

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This may be a daft question. However, does everyone hear the best tune when the speakers are in their best position or does the tune appear to be more tuneful for different people with differing speaker positions? So what's best for you tune wise will suit everyone or not?

Mike.
That’s an interesting question and I think I understand what you’re asking. The only experience I have is when I’ve worked with someone else to set up a system, when I was in retail, and we’ve both agreed on the final placement, which would suggest we were both hearing the same thing. I would expect anyone following the methodology outline by Elad Repooc would end up with speakers in the same place, although perhaps not as precisely located as someone more experienced, There will, of course, be more than one “ideal” location (if that doesn’t sound self contradictory) based on orientation in the room (ie firing down length or width) and, possibly, listening position, although I haven’t thought about that, as you tend to be told “I sit there”. What I do experience in my room, is that once the speaker positions are finalised and SO setup, then they sound good from most anywhere in the room, not just the listening position. YMMV

’troll

 
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hannson.design

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This may be a daft question. However, does everyone hear the best tune when the speakers are in their best position or does the tune appear to be more tuneful for different people with differing speaker positions? So what's best for you tune wise will be best for everyone or not?

Mike.
Not daft at all! My experience suggests that we can all agree on relative pitch errors, but to the same degree? I’m not aware of any research on the matter (I’d have to do a search), but as a guess, and as jail4CEOs2 suggests, probably not.

 

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With correct speaker position SO is not necessary IMO.
I am sorry but I must disagree - or at least say it depends on the speaker room combo. If the speakers are fairly room benine I am sure you can get them sounding good by positioning alone. My current 350P's fall into this category - I am not currently using SO and they sound good. With my previous Keltiks I would say they were virtually unlistenable without using SO - no matter where they were postioned. With SO1 or 2 setup correctly they sounded sweet. 

 
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