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room size and speaker type

The Swedish Chef

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Aug 25, 2005
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Philip
working my way through the speaker threads on here looking for ideas to upgrade my systemand i've been thinking is there any rule to what size room you have and what size speaker you need?

i've got quite a large room, (high ceilings) so immediately start to look at floor-standers but woulda good set of stand-mounts work just as well?

a general question i know but we're not usually short of opinions here:D

 
G

Guest

Guest
yes, although depends what you mean by standmount, ATC300's are effectively a standmount.

IMVHO if you plan to use a compact speaker in a large room, get one's with biggest drivers you can, if you like it realistic.

WHtas wrong with th Ojans?

 

cjr

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Aug 8, 2005
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Swedish, my room is 4.5m x 5.0m, always used standmounts (Castles prior to the Diapasons), bass was lacking until I added an active sub, I have found it surprisingly easy to integrate the sub in the room (3 different locations) and I have found the user defined settings on the sub for gain & crossover very easy to integrate for my standmounts (others differ in this respect). I have chosen standmounts mainly because I have not heard floorers below £1000 that are as refined and as articulate at sub £1000 standmounts to my ears – I also find floorers swamp mib band & treble with bass (to my ears & preference), I think adding a sub completes the package (and is user defnable). Other alternative is large cabninet speakers with large driver arrays to get that air pushing. The sub is a 12†driver and I imagine a floorer with such a driver size would be too big for the room TBH. I think standmounts and sub offer a level of tuning/setting that floorers don’t offer, thus you will need to demo them in room, in your system till your happy. Where you can generally buy a set of standmounts you like the treble & mid band flavour of, then try to integrate a bass additive from a sub.

All IMHO.

 

The Swedish Chef

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Aug 25, 2005
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Philip
thanks for the responses,

nothing really wrong with the ojans, more a quest to find a sound closer to the one i seek. realistic is the right word. they offer very good bass and a wide soundstage but lack imaging and a refined top end, both of which i value as i mainly listen to jazz where tight bass is much more a requirement than flown blown bass and crystal clear treble and imagine are more realistic to small stages than orchestral sized concert halls.

cjr, are you using one sub or two?

ohh hundredth post, do i get a prize?

 

cjr

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Aug 8, 2005
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Swede – one : situated under the side table beside the chair. Gain output is set about 70% of what the sub can deliver, thus one is enough for me and the room. Standmounts toed into the listening position described in the thread below.

th_SysJan06-6.jpg


http://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum1/3231.html

 

cjr

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Aug 8, 2005
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Biscuit wrote:

problem is - I'm sure I can place bass in the soundstage - so what happens when you add a single sub? I think if I went for a sub, I would want a pair.
Well Biccy you have a special ability that I do not posess ie L & R location of bass. I cant tell where the bass eminates from Biccy in my setup, AFAIAC its coming from the L & R speakers. And I have heard a few standmount + sub setups, with a well integrated sub you should be surprised when you hear the bass and you are not drawn to the sub location. That is my setting criteria once I knows its integrated (integrated to suit my ears of course and not via a SPL).

I have also heard lots of full range floorstanders Biccy and never once have I felt a L or R shift in emphasis in bass response or location in soundstage (I think bass envelopes the whole soundstage or it should as per live events), ie Ive never felt more or less on one side of soundstage from bass, bass is either there or not in my ears, and quality of bass varies from recording to recording of course.

 
G

Guest

Guest
Not all bass is recorded in mono, or centered in soundstage, lots of live music is mixed in mono through PA, bass is not directional, but if an accoustic double bass was plucked right of stage, it would sound like it was right of stage, as for subs, I guess some of the directional info if there is any in a particular setup, will still be handled by the satelites, to say all bass is effectively mono, is sweeping, I have and do hear bass steered around soundstage, depends on the recordings, if using sub as underpinning for standmounts, it fills in so low down as to be not noticable where it sits, and satelites do stereo effects, but if using with satelites that don't go very low on there own, then a 2 sub setup would give better results.

 
G

Guest

Guest
Bass is not really directional. Mine stays firmly between the speaks. The thing is if you buy a pair of quality standmounts and a subwould the sum total buy a quality floorstander that could do the job just as well. Factor in floorspace as well though i do appreciate that subs can be hidden in dead space in a room and some money for cables . Personally i go for a good floorstander if you have the room over a standmount. Both are compromise products as standmounts in a larger room will not produce realistic bass no matter how well designed just as a cheaper floorstander may produce better bass but struggle to match a quality standmount in mids and trebles. Its only when you really start moving up the financial scale that differences become readily apparent. Now i know there are people who doubt this with cables and decent cd players and dvd players but thats not the issue with speakers. Differences in speakers are the easiest thing to hear. Just think back to the recent bakeoff. BTW a difference in presentation is still a difference even if the overall effect means that neither speaker is better than each other. Totally agree withPaul about the way olderrecording are mixed.Once you hear the bassline it stays exactly put in the soundstage (re MD "Kind of Blue") but the Trumpet and sax both move in and out from the left and right speakers when they take centre stage as the prominent instrument. In a large room iwhere you don't think you would be compromised by the acoustics i would plump for a large floorstanderto realistically produce music. If you think integration may be difficult it may be worth experimenting with the standmount and sub route.

 

cjr

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Aug 8, 2005
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Duvet wrote:

Bass is not really directional.
If bass is not directional (omni directional) I struggle to see how bass can be placed in a soundstage from left to right (or vice versa) but many people claim to hear this, ie like Biccy above. Good points on the pros & cons of both scenarios bedspread.

 
G

Guest

Guest
Well Colin i suppose it also depends on what type of bass is being produced. Fretless or double bass seems much more forward in the mix but that shouldn't be misunderstood as directional just because something is easier to hear.

 
G

Guest

Guest
Duvet listen to shpongle if you want directioanl bass, I don't just mean drums etc, I mean low bass notes, they been mixed tom move around soundstage, and move it does.

 

Class A

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Jul 21, 2005
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Suffolk, , United Ki
I think
smile.png
most bass instruments has a combination of mid bass and low bass frequency. The mid bass (>150Hz) are the frequency that tells you where the bass instruments are coming from. The low bass has little effect on the balance of the stereo image (left or right). In most cases you are feeling the low bass rather than hearing it.

I used to own a pair of Eclipse 508 with a 316SW subwoofer. I put the sub not between the sats but on the righthand side of the right sat (near the corner).I set the crossover at about 120Hz. To my surprise, this had has no effect on the stereo image. All this could also due to me not having a pair of golden ears!
biggrin.png


 

Boxer

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Nov 2, 2005
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To return to the original question (sorry for interrupting what is a very interesting discussion) - I use my baby ProAcs in a roughly 30ft x 13 ft room, speaks at one end, main listening seat c2/3 back into room; no problems at all, drive room sucessfully.

Boxer

 

cjr

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Aug 8, 2005
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Duvet, the best bass laden CD I own is on World Circuit for Orlando Cachaito Lopez, Double Bass cuban player who has appeared on all the BVSC albums, recording quality is 10/10, you can hear the bass strings being plucked from say left hand side of soundstage, but bass comes from L & R, track 8 “Tumbanga†combines double bass, reverb bass from Dub organ and spatial panning. All of these would suggest a location for the bass being identifiable especially the panning, but nope its all encompassing (and with this track actually physical bass that hits you), I would suggest that there is a cut off where bass is non directional as Jesse has eloqunently described above, I know not what it is but I would assume below 35Hz has not “directional qualities going by the midband bass Ive heard before.

B00005ATM5.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005ATM5/qid=1138385269/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/202-3669869-8115854

Anyway a good CD for anyone wanting to sample deep bass.

 
G

Guest

Guest
i have a set of quad 11's on dreadnought stands, and a set of floor standing cantons with 4 drivers. in a 30m2 room.

no contest the cantons walk it easily.the quads just can't fill the room. floorstanders for me everytime. i've had many standmounts and was never happy with the sound.

 

ClassikFan

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Jul 19, 2005
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Stuart
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
When I first heard WB Arcs they were in the middle of a really big room (no where near any of the walls) but still sounded superb.

 

Davewhityetagain

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Jul 24, 2005
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, ,
front rooms in Japan are smaller even than UK but your not going to find many stand mounted speakers your find big mothers

very poular are the bigger sizes of the Tannoy Prestige range

do big speakers work in small rooms ??????????? well yes look at that chap hi fi news ( the one with the nice carpet) he had speakers as tall as himself

 

Sastusbulbas

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Jan 19, 2006
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Steve
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I suppose directional bass will depend as much on the room your equipment and hearing acuity.

If a Jump harrier takes off you can usually tell from which direction just as when a huge truck is parked outside it is possible to tell from which direction .

Make a stereo recording of two artillary peices going off , one extreme left and one extreme right , with a decent system you should be able to notice left and right bass.

Madonna's Bedtime stories track , I have heard this produce low bass behind the listening position with Martin Logan CLSII and a Musical Fidelity MVX/A370 amp combo , and low bass go around the room from behind one speaker to behind the listening position and behind the next speaker , full circle with Kef R107,s.

There are a few other CD's of mine with very low bass audible from one channel and not the other.

Try Cyclo by Ikedia, though it may not be to everyones taste.

 

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