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Still building and fixing?

bencat

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Well after blowing a channel on one of my Quads once again and just getting back for repair spent today taking out the loan Mission Power amp (thanks Paul) and putting the Quad 405 back in place . I do not know but each time I do this I have to complete a full Dirac Live session . I have the saved files but they do not seems to load properly and the sound is just not right . So full Dirac run through and then take time to adjust the filters to where I want them to be .

Playing Sorrow Tears & Blood by Fela Kuti and I suddenly feel so sad that the Wam Show did not happen yet . This is the best this system has ever sounded and a whole world away from were i started . Everything is jus better , tighter deeper bass , really fluid and fast mid range , the best imaging I have ever had from these speakers and this in a quite small cramped room which is not letting the KEF's really breathe . Thamk you Tony so glad you made the suggestion to give the stacked units a try and that despite the issues I kept going to make them work . They sound so good .

Fingers, toes and if nessesary testicles all crossed that somehting can be managed this year , if not then roll on next year .

 

bencat

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Okay with the prospect of the Wam Show now for September I think we can dare to think about the system we intend to bring again . Mine has changed and is about to change again . Firstly the amplifiers have been changed to 2 x NVA A20 power amplifiers which is working very well . I am also now in the start of making these a true Threeway with the addition of an NVA A30 power amplifier for the low base and the other 2 A20 for mid and treble. This will also mean switching to a MiniDSP DDRC 22 D for the Dirac Live treatment and the treated digital signal will go in to a Beringer unit for the Crossover split and then feeding the analogue out signal to the speakers as three separate channels . With a bit of luck this will improve the sound quality even more . But then again it may well result in yet more fried tweeters or blown amplifiers but it will be fun trying .

 
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greybeard

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MiniDSP DDRC 22 D for the Dirac Live treatment and the treated digital signal will go in to a Beringer unit for the Crossover split and then feeding the analogue out signal to the speakers as three separate channels
Which Behringer crossover are you going to use Andrew?

 

bencat

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Hi Colin

Keith has very kindly offered me the loan of a Behringer dcx2496 ultradrive pro which has a digital in and can do the crossover settings for me . Never used one before but if it works will look out of a decent used one and then that will be the system .

 
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greybeard

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Hi Colin

Keith has very kindly offered me the loan of a Behringer dcx2496 ultradrive pro which has a digital in and can do the crossover settings for me . Never used one before but if it works will look out of a decent used one and then that will be the system .
They also do DSP, Parametric eq, time delay ect.

 

bencat

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Thanks Colin but the simplicity of Dirac Live through the MiniDSP DDRC 22D and the great sound quality it offers make using that a simple task . I am much more familiar with that unit and as it does so much automatically for me I do not see much point in doing the things again on the Behringer . Having said that will need help just setting the crossover points as I have never used the Behringer before and need to get it right . Not sure how much will be available to set via my PC and how much will need to be manually put in by me so will wait for it to arrive and then see how it goes. Have you any suggestions of where to set the low bass cut off ? As a two way the Bass is set at 3000 Hz with the treble working from there so would 1500 Hz be a sensible starting point leaving the low bass unit dealing with that part and the Mid Bass unit handling 1500 - 3000 Hz . Perhaps that is a little high but this is the part i do not know about .

 

greybeard

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1500hz would be too high imo.

I have been experimenting with that lately, I have tried numerous xover points,from, 200hz  up to 900hz, but have eventually settled on 275hz, meaning the mid driver is doing what they call the telephone range, 275-3500, and if I remember correctly, this is what Serge suggested, when I first started out down the active route. But I started off 2 way, so it did not apply then.

It sounds good to my ears, vocals are prominent, and all the detail is there, with solid tight bass when it is on the recording. I found the higher the xover point, the warmer the sound became, but vocals became recessed, and to my tastes sounded worse. But that is the beauty of active and dsp you can taylor flat or to your tastes, so have fun.

 
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bencat

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Thanks Colin

That really is very useful it gives me a sensible starting point to use and know that it is the right sort of area . I can then as you say tune it by ear until I get what I want to hear . Given your experience will start out at 200hz and adjust it up from there until it either sounds right or until it starts to go over and then back it off a bit .

Because of the way I am doing this I will first set (and double check) the CR points at 200hz - 3000hz- 15000khz ( I prefer not to let it go on to 20000khz as the tweeter units starts to get a little sharp) . Once I am confident that I have all of that in place will then run a Dirac Live session and do the normal corrections needed to get the curve the way i want it . Hopefully this will be then sounding at least as good if not better than what i have now . Tony did point out that the final DtoA conversion will be in the Behringer but as this 24/96 and the DDRC 22D only outputs 24/96 then it should be fine . I have looked and still could not find a sensible priced digital input crossover unit other than this one so it will have to do for now .

 
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greybeard

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Also remember that my mid driver is a B110, not that it will effect the xover point of the B200, but I would certainly think they will sound different, they are both bextrene drivers though, so the house sound should be similar.

 
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eddie-baby

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Because of the way I am doing this I will first set (and double check) the CR points at 200hz - 3000hz- 15000khz ( I prefer not to let it go on to 20000khz as the tweeter units starts to get a little sharp)
That's understandable, even some top designs take off the top couple of khz's sometimes, maybe there's a lot to be said for it. One of the members said on here just the other day his Harbeth p3esr cuts off at 15khz in their much loved/sold design, which I didn't realise, and I've known a few Shahinian that don't reach over 18k either (on the specs anyway). I've always been / was always in the school of 20-20khz is best but those lower hz are not always achievable well or practical anyway and it doesn't mean to say it'll sound good if they are there. So I can see the logic of trimming the top as well if the overall sound for you by ear is better. 

Did the final finishing touches to the new mid cabinets (top) today. Polished and oiled, with grills completed.

Photo 09-10-2021, 11 08 17.jpg
Looking good Colin.
Those do look particularly good. Like the design. 

 

bencat

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Okay yet another schoolboy error but at least this has been spotted by me this time . In my head (which is is a very strange place and given to idiot jumps) I thoughy what i would need is Female XLR to 2 RCA female sockets so ordered three . Then just before they were delivered thought about it and no Andrew that is not what you need . So I now have three cheap Y splitters in case anyone needs one .

Instead have now ordered 6 x XLR Female to RCA Female adapters which means I can then use the current interconnects add two more rca leads and voila I have a full set of six connections for my new three way idea. I know you could not make this up could you I have been fiddling with wires and equipment for over 45 years but never really used XLR's bit at least I spotted this and have the right things on the way , how much more frustrating would it have been if the Behringer unit arrived and i then found out I could use it .

Ah well my self isolation ends next Thursday so still have lots of time to spend fiddling .

 

eddie-baby

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Well I have got the mid cabinets made and testing as I type, very pleased so far. Just the grills to make and stain oil.

DSC01697.JPG
Where, what are the other drive units involved in this project anyway Colin? Was there a specfic thread on it, or is it a top secret show reveal job :)

I did scroll back a bit in this thread and seen the B110 in the mid here, but what was the bass and was there another cabinet planned for the tweeter or was there another plan?

What materials were used for the cabinets as well? Did you damp the cabinets or use any box filling?

 

greybeard

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Where, what are the other drive units involved in this project anyway Colin? Was there a specfic thread on it, or is it a top secret show reveal job :)

I did scroll back a bit in this thread and seen the B110 in the mid here, but what was the bass and was there another cabinet planned for the tweeter or was there another plan?

What materials were used for the cabinets as well? Did you damp the cabinets or use any box filling?
It originally started as a 2 way active (bottom cabinet) which i showed at Harrogate using a Behringer xover DCX2496 and 2 Behringer A500 amps. The drive units were KEF B200 & T27. I then bought a 6 channel modular amp from KJF Audio so as I could go 3 way. The intention was to build a completely new cabinet, but time was tight with the Kegworth show coming up  :doh:  so I just built a small cabinet that would fit on top of the 2 way, to house the mid (KEF B110) They are both sealed cabinets made of Cherry veneered MDF, 22mm for the B200, and 12mm for the B110 (my reasoning for this was, the Ls35a cab is 12mm, and I love the sound of this speaker, especially vocals, so a highly technical decision :)  ) All cabinets were lined with bitumen damping, and then eggbox accoustic foam. The B 200 cabinets were also stuffed with accoustic wadding.

The 3 way configuration has improved significantly on the 2 way, in just about every area. The amp is also superb, transparent, and extremely powerful, giving 500wpc Bass, 250 wpc Mids and 125 wpc Tweeters into 4ohms. So 875 wpc total, should be enough to annoy your neighbours Eddie!!. 

 
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eddie-baby

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It originally started as a 2 way active (bottom cabinet) which i showed at Harrogate using a Behringer xover DCX2496 and 2 Behringer A500 amps. The drive units were KEF B200 & T27. I then bought a 6 channel modular amp from KJF Audio so as I could go 3 way. The intention was to build a completely new cabinet, but time was tight with the Kegworth show coming up  :doh:  so I just built a small cabinet that would fit on top of the 2 way, to house the mid (KEF B110) They are both sealed cabinets made of Cherry veneered MDF, 22mm for the B200, and 12mm for the B110 (my reasoning for this was, the Ls35a cab is 12mm, and I love the sound of this speaker, especially vocals, so a highly technical decision :)  ) All cabinets were line with bitumen damping, and then eggbox accoustic foam. The B 200 cabinets were also stuffed with accoustic wadding.

The 3 way configuration has improved significantly on the 2 way, in just about every area. The amp is also superb, transparent, and extremely powerful, giving 500wpc Bass, 250 wpc Mids and 125 wpc Tweeters into 4ohms. So 875 wpc total, should be enough to annoy your neighbours Eddie!!. 
Ah nice one Colin, interesting. Yes a good 3 way beats a 2 way or at least overcomes some of the problems a two way can present or many keep saying/showing anyway. On saying that some of the 2 ways I've heard over the years have been some of the finest speakers Ive ever heard, the LS3/5A being one and many from ProAc and other makers.

Yours look like a great design you've happened to arrive at anyway building on from a previous build, and putting the midrange in its own sealed chamber is another big advantage I seem to see a lot advocating again. Without seeing the drivers in your lower cabinet I am assuming its bass at the bottom tweeter above, and then the midrange on top separate. Its kind of like the arrangement Focal use in their high end designs so there must be something in doing it that way.

As you know I've been playing with speaker building and there is so many factors to a speaker. I've become a bit obsessed with that now more so than box swapping but I have made some interesting discoveries. I like the 12mm thinner wall cabinet design build as well. One thing I did discover though was after building 2 sets with identical cabinets just how much difference there was in sound of materials used! I tried speakers side by side with identical drivers in them (as well as using various drivers, I did a lot of swapping and testing!) but the thing I couldn't get over was how much difference their sound can be with identical dimensions and everything else being the same. Ply 'for me' was a much better sound without any other adjustment than the exact same MDF design I made. It was so much so I just moved the MDF I painstakingly made onto someone else. Again with that being said there are still some of my favourites and amazing speakers out there that use all MDF builds though, I even have a few other all MDF factory made designs here as well, but for my small projects it was night and day better after comparing. It inspired me to actually make another set of better ply cabinets (which I've done now as well) so I have two sets of ply here now which overall I'm pleased with.

And don't wind me up about that neighbour I hate them now :D !

Next Kegworth (whenever that ever is) I was perhaps going to try the all DIY route exhibit, I made some interesting little amps as well. Picture of some of the cabs here when I was in testing stages.






 
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greybeard

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They look excellent Eddie, what drivers did you use in those? Did you use off the shelf Xovers, or design your own. One of the reasons I love actives, is that you can experiment to your heart's content without any more expense, and on the fly too.

Carry on the good work, and hopefully I'll get to listen to them in the not too distant future 😊

 
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eddie-baby

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They look excellent Eddie, what drivers did you use in those? Did you use off the shelf Xovers, or design your own. One of the reasons I love actives, is that you can experiment to your heart's content without any more expense, and on the fly too.

Carry on the good work, and hopefully I'll get to listen to them in the not too distant future 😊
There you can see a mixture of drivers used there Colin, I'll tell you more about it when I see you it's been and interesting journey. I tried a load, Seas, Scanspeak, Monacour and I since moved on to others as well. I've used a load of different crossovers as well, off shelf, from other designs, DIY and made modifications myself, comparing multiple crossovers is an enlightening experience as well. I know about the active option its still an option, actually I have some other active projects going on here besides the mini monitors I made there. I do really like the appeal of one amp I can just swap for the speakers approach as well though. At the moment I've got more things in bits than I ever have before with my hi-fi :D Theres more on the bench than I can listen to as a complete setup. Theres just so many pro's and cons with all audio though.

 

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