WAM Census 2021 Results - Sources

StingRay

Legend Wammer
Wammer
Apr 27, 2016
13,040
8,521
163
Suffolk coast, UK
AKA
Ray
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Additionally to the above debate I think headphones for me add that immediate 'presence' to the sound in a way that Loudspeakers find not so easily to do.  I have used cheap Sony (£20) headphones and now use Beyerdynamic Dt990 (250ohms) and DT770 (80ohms).  With the cheap headphones I still enjoyed the music because it is the way the headphones delivered the music, sort of instant direct open access to the instruments, and the sound seems a little more immediate (a bit like listening to more expensive ATC SCM40 speakers).  Sometimes I get the impression that it takes a more expensive highend speaker to replicate that sort of deliverence of sound as headphones can produce even with very basic system...?
Yes headphones are a cheap way of getting good sound quality. But I never got on with headphones, comfort and the soundstage but I have never tried high end ones. I had some Sennheiser Momentums, which I did not like at all, so I sold them.  I may try some again. I have an old pair of Audio Technica I use occassionally on the computer.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Klassik

moo-fi

Wammer
Wammer
Apr 5, 2009
1,371
662
158
Doncaster
AKA
Fred
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
The biggest difference between You tube and streaming services is the required recording standards. We are expected to upload our mastered versions in hi-res of at least 24bit  192khz, for streaming services, if it is for you tube, then anything goes.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Lawrence001

Mega Wammer
Wammer
Jul 21, 2015
5,949
3,533
168
London
AKA
Lawrence
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
No, because it has no effect upon it. "High res" is quackery.
I'm not convinced that hires is that much better than red book done right, but I'm sure it's better than mp3 at 256. I'm not sure why you would have joined the Wam if you don't want to discuss your system and you think what components you have makes no difference to the sound.

Anyway, each to their own. You might be interested in the discussion on this forum.

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/low-fi.1050849/
 

Monitor Gold Ten

Basking in the warm glow of Electron Tubes.
Wammer
Aug 6, 2012
8,911
2,291
193
Catfield
AKA
Stu
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
The biggest difference between You tube and streaming services is the required recording standards. We are expected to upload our mastered versions in hi-res of at least 24bit  192khz, for streaming services, if it is for you tube, then anything goes.
I'm not going to pretend to know anything about this stuff; my subjective view is that at Music Evenings, some friends and neighbours plug in stuff from You Tube. 

In many cases, there's an odd sort of white noise in the background. 

My system is quite unforgiving; I've yet to listen to a Digital Source aside from CD through my Audiolab M-DAC+. This will be an interesting thing to try! 👍 

I prefer Vinyl for a proper listening session; CD makes up the majority of my collection. 😎

 

rdale

Wammer
Wammer Plus
May 21, 2009
2,806
1,773
178
Gran Canaria, Spain
AKA
Richard Dale
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
No, because it has no effect upon it. "High res" is quackery.
I've no idea why you post here if you won't reveal what kit you've got, and yet make sweeping statements such as the above. I've seen no evidence that you are actually an audiophile, as opposed to someone who is merely here to bait and troll audiophiles.

 

ziggy

Wammer
Wammer
Mar 11, 2017
659
615
98
Cardiff
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
The difference between 44 kHz 16 Bit and YT/MP3/Spotify on my main system is night and day.  I can also detect that CD quality is slightly better on a Bluetooth speaker and low cost ear buds.

 

MotherSky

The stone that killed two birds
Wammer
Jun 5, 2010
1,828
1,713
158
Shropshire
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
There are some extremely peculiar contributions to this thread - the implication that anyone subscribing to a streaming service is either a mug, a fat cat pensioner, or both is one that I find particularly irritating - my annual £120 subscription to Qobuz is quite a bit less than I used to spend on CDs, and is driven by a passion for music, not an excess of wealth (I work restoring antique clocks and automata, and could probably earn more fitting kitchens) - I can get superb results from standard 16/44 files, but anything less simply sounds atrocious played on anything north of a mini system to my ears - YouTube and the like are useful for tracking down new music, but I personally find them completely unacceptable for proper listening - but people's views on sound quality (and indeed what constitutes basic good manners) apparently vary wildly - MH

 

Klassik

Well-Known Wammer
Wammer
Sep 21, 2018
1,576
1,972
133
Houston
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I have used cheap Sony (£20) headphones and now use Beyerdynamic Dt990 (250ohms) and DT770 (80ohms).  With the cheap headphones I still enjoyed the music because it is the way the headphones delivered the music, sort of instant direct open access to the instruments, and the sound seems a little more immediate (a bit like listening to more expensive ATC SCM40 speakers).
A few years ago, we had some cheap Sony MDR-ZX100 headphones show up at work.  Klassik is unsure of why we even had those headphones, but Klassik gave them a listen with low expectations and they sounded surprisingly good for what were ~$20 USD headphones.  Klassik has certainly heard more expensive headphones which sounded worse.  Klassik was not surprised some years later when Amir at ASR gave a newer version of those Sony headphones a quite favorable review.  Amir's positive words came when the headphones were used with EQ, but still.  Long story short, it's not surprising that those wanting good sound at a low price use headphones.  The Sony might be an extreme example, and obviously there are better options for durability and sound, but something like those headphones ought to please the great majority of music lovers.

I'm not convinced that hires is that much better than red book done right, but I'm sure it's better than mp3 at 256. I'm not sure why you would have joined the Wam if you don't want to discuss your system and you think what components you have makes no difference to the sound.
Klassik has known @Le Baron for a number of years and has been on a number of different music forums where we are both members.  Le Baron is a musician and has extensive knowledge of classical and jazz music.  Klassik is also aware of Le Baron's equipment which includes, or at least included at one time, a SACD player and several classical SACDs.  As a trained musician with good equipment, Le Baron is in a position to make judgements about whether he thinks high-res gets one closer to music or not.

Also, this is not just a Hi-Fi forum, but it's also a music forum.  Here's the header image of the forum if people have not taken a look at it lately:

hifiwigwam-logo.jpg.7e14466832a41a77979e55e284b15018.jpg


Le Baron discusses Hi-Fi and music.  Given that this thread is about sources, Le Baron and many others have discussed his relationship between Hi-Fi and music as it relates to sources.  Le Baron may or may not be a member of the million dollar cable club (maybe he is, our discussion of cables are about as frequent as our discussion of the appreciation of the music of Franz Schubert xD ), but his equipment is superior to what is in probably well over 90% of homes.  Is that not enough equipment for one, a musician no less, to discuss their relationship between Hi-Fi and music?  :?

 
  • Upvote
Reactions: EddieRUKidding

StingRay

Legend Wammer
Wammer
Apr 27, 2016
13,040
8,521
163
Suffolk coast, UK
AKA
Ray
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
There are some extremely peculiar contributions to this thread - the implication that anyone subscribing to a streaming service is either a mug, a fat cat pensioner, or both is one that I find particularly irritating - my annual £120 subscription to Qobuz is quite a bit less than I used to spend on CDs, and is driven by a passion for music, not an excess of wealth (I work restoring antique clocks and automata, and could probably earn more fitting kitchens) - I can get superb results from standard 16/44 files, but anything less simply sounds atrocious played on anything north of a mini system to my ears - YouTube and the like are useful for tracking down new music, but I personally find them completely unacceptable for proper listening - but people's views on sound quality (and indeed what constitutes basic good manners) apparently vary wildly - MH
My position is similar but I have not decided which streaming service to subscribe to yet, waiting to try Spotify cd streaming, at the moment Tidal have given me a free 3 month trial. Qobuz are my first choice at the moment. I find on mp3 there is a harshness and thinness to the sound, compressed material and at higher volumes its even worse. 

The big plus is I can pay around £10 and stream most music I want, if I did not have that I would spending loads more on cds and downloads, to get a decent library would cost many thousands of £s, so £120 per year is a bargain. Some cds are getting seriously expensive now.
I looked on YouTube but about half the albums, I have played recently, are not even on there or you have pay £10 pm to play them. 
Just switched from playing Ali Farka Toure on YouTube to Tidal, so much difference, the strings have a different tone and richness, was surprising the difference. 

But people should do what suits them best. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Le Baron

Fully exonerated
Wammer
Oct 18, 2020
2,860
4,077
183
Pays-Bas
AKA
Jean-Marc
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I've no idea why you post here if you won't reveal what kit you've got, and yet make sweeping statements such as the above. I've seen no evidence that you are actually an audiophile, as opposed to someone who is merely here to bait and troll audiophiles.
What a weird thing to say. Just because I'm not dressed in leopard skin and draped over my speakers I'm a 'troll'?

If it soothes you the amp I'm using is a Marantz PM6006.

 

Lawrence001

Mega Wammer
Wammer
Jul 21, 2015
5,949
3,533
168
London
AKA
Lawrence
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Klassik has known @Le Baron for a number of years and has been on a number of different music forums where we are both members.  Le Baron is a musician and has extensive knowledge of classical and jazz music.  Klassik is also aware of Le Baron's equipment which includes, or at least included at one time, a SACD player and several classical SACDs.  As a trained musician with good equipment, Le Baron is in a position to make judgements about whether he thinks high-res gets one closer to music or not.
Also, this is not just a Hi-Fi forum, but it's also a music forum.  Here's the header image of the forum if people have not taken a look at it lately:
hifiwigwam-logo.jpg.7e14466832a41a77979e55e284b15018.jpg

Le Baron discusses Hi-Fi and music.  Given that this thread is about sources, Le Baron and many others have discussed his relationship between Hi-Fi and music as it relates to sources.  Le Baron may or may not be a member of the million dollar cable club (maybe he is, our discussion of cables are about as frequent as our discussion of the appreciation of the music of Franz Schubert [emoji23]), but his equipment is superior to what is in probably well over 90% of homes.  Is that not enough equipment for one, a musician no less, to discuss their relationship between Hi-Fi and music? 
71_71.gif.90e48c720ca56a2d2fa0532dd3380cc7.gif
That may all be so, but he refuses to say what his system is, so I couldn't possibly know that.

While he initially said that he enjoys music from YouTube as much as a streaming service, which is fair enough, he then went on to say it makes no difference to sound quality. From my own experience, and that of others, the only logical assumption to make is that either it's not a very good system, or he's not able to tell the difference between low and high quality sound reproduction. Ruling out the latter, as it's unlikely someone like that would join this forum, I concluded the former.

Taking on board your comment that it's a music forum as well as a hifi forum then maybe I should reconsider that, but I'm still wound up by his referring to people who subscribe to streaming services (including me) as mugs, based solely on his own personal choices.
 

DomT

Food and coffee and rock n roll
Wammer Plus
Jul 23, 2019
10,315
9,583
198
Village near Nottingham.
AKA
Dom
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
I'm not convinced that hires is that much better than red book done right, but I'm sure it's better than mp3 at 256. I'm not sure why you would have joined the Wam if you don't want to discuss your system and you think what components you have makes no difference to the sound.

Anyway, each to their own. You might be interested in the discussion on this forum.

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/low-fi.1050849/
You might be interested in what actually happens in professional recording studios and why high rates are used.

 

Klassik

Well-Known Wammer
Wammer
Sep 21, 2018
1,576
1,972
133
Houston
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Taking on board your comment that it's a music forum as well as a hifi forum then maybe I should reconsider that, but I'm still wound up by his referring to people who subscribe to streaming services (including me) as mugs, based solely on his own personal choices.
Klassik can't say for sure, but @Le Baron would probably still think the same even if he didn't say anything.  xD   On that note, Klassik is quite sure that people have plenty of thoughts about ole' Klassik which may not get said publicly xD , but it is what it is. 

Le Baron's take on things is not that unusual when looking at the population as a whole.  Joe Q. Public may not think anyone is daft for paying for high-res streaming, but there are many Joe Q. Publics who think it would be daft for them to pay for Joe Q. Public to pay for high-res streaming.  What Joe Q. Public thinks about cable obsessions, magic rocks, and green Sharpies is a different matter altogether.  ;)

As a classical music fan who has been on other classical music/Hi-Fi forums, there are people every now and then who are obsessive about the sound quality of the recordings.  Surely some here know the type who only buy SACDs or high-res FLAC downloads.  Most people, even those like Klassik who have an interest in audio equipment and who have spent more money than the average person on audio equipment, find these people to be rather dotty.  For most of us, we are aware of the sound quality of a recording and we'd pick the one with better sound quality all else being equal, but as long as the recording has a certain level of quality which is quite easily achieved in modern times, we quickly forget about anything relating to Hi-Fi when we enjoy the music.  If Klassik is dancing, doing pelvic thrusts, and/or air conducting, the sound quality is good enough to get the job done.  ;)

 

Le Baron

Fully exonerated
Wammer
Oct 18, 2020
2,860
4,077
183
Pays-Bas
AKA
Jean-Marc
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
Taking on board your comment that it's a music forum as well as a hifi forum then maybe I should reconsider that, but I'm still wound up by his referring to people who subscribe to streaming services (including me) as mugs, based solely on his own personal choices.
You shouldn't be. If you're fully comfortable in your view and firmly convinced I'm deluded, you can just say so and I'll be fine with that. I don't want to 'win' anything.

On the equipment front, I like it. I like all sorts of things. Especially old tape machines and radios and my little vintage Beogram turntable, but also the newer pieces I have. Also musical equipment:  a Rhodes piano with an original smallstone phaser box, and a Roland 808, some vintage synths. All sorts of odds-and-ends. I'm not really looking to create some distinct piece of visual art called a 'system' of which I can take photographs or describe. Why is this so intolerable? I like to look at what others have here, there are some nice things. I do have a normal set-up of: turntable, cassette deck, CD player, tuner, amp, but it's just for producing sounds out of old media I still want to have. Sometimes I change things out. It's unimportant to me.

Fair enough, if you want to say you have created superior sound from streaming the internet into some equipment, then disregard my view. I personally think it's a fine line between audiophile and audio quackery. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not.

 

Who's yoru Daddy

Newbie
Wammer
Aug 3, 2016
40
32
38
Hampshire
AKA
James
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
To me the source is also about the whole experience. In the census I didn't even include my streaming equipment, as I don't consider it something that I "listen to". It is used for background music and to hear music that I haven't heard before. But if I like something, I will hunt it down on vinyl. If not available then CD. Then when I feel in the mood to sit back and listen, I will take the cover off the valve amp, switch it on, move my listening chair to my favourite spot, turn on the record player, get the album on, make sure all is clean and sit back with a glass of something and often look through the album cover and enjoy.

With streaming, I have it on in the background whilst doing something else, rather like the radio use to be at work.

I don't know whether it is because I haven't spent the time and effort on auditioning streaming equipment, but on my system, it is the weakest link in terms of quality and I am fine with that. Internet speed to my house isn't that great, so the occasional interruption of a sudden buffering pause tends to spoil my enjoyment if the music is my sole focus anyway.

 

DomT

Food and coffee and rock n roll
Wammer Plus
Jul 23, 2019
10,315
9,583
198
Village near Nottingham.
AKA
Dom
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
To me the source is also about the whole experience. In the census I didn't even include my streaming equipment, as I don't consider it something that I "listen to". It is used for background music and to hear music that I haven't heard before. But if I like something, I will hunt it down on vinyl. If not available then CD. Then when I feel in the mood to sit back and listen, I will take the cover off the valve amp, switch it on, move my listening chair to my favourite spot, turn on the record player, get the album on, make sure all is clean and sit back with a glass of something and often look through the album cover and enjoy.

With streaming, I have it on in the background whilst doing something else, rather like the radio use to be at work.

I don't know whether it is because I haven't spent the time and effort on auditioning streaming equipment, but on my system, it is the weakest link in terms of quality and I am fine with that. Internet speed to my house isn't that great, so the occasional interruption of a sudden buffering pause tends to spoil my enjoyment if the music is my sole focus anyway.
Seems like you are a hifi lover rather than music lover.  Last night I found some really old Huang Chung songs on YouTube and had a blast listening to them for the first time on a laptop using the built in speakers: it was a wonderful experience.

 

Lawrence001

Mega Wammer
Wammer
Jul 21, 2015
5,949
3,533
168
London
AKA
Lawrence
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
You shouldn't be. If you're fully comfortable in your view and firmly convinced I'm deluded, you can just say so and I'll be fine with that. I don't want to 'win' anything.
On the equipment front, I like it. I like all sorts of things. Especially old tape machines and radios and my little vintage Beogram turntable, but also the newer pieces I have. Also musical equipment:  a Rhodes piano with an original smallstone phaser box, and a Roland 808, some vintage synths. All sorts of odds-and-ends. I'm not really looking to create some distinct piece of visual art called a 'system' of which I can take photographs or describe. Why is this so intolerable? I like to look at what others have here, there are some nice things. I do have a normal set-up of: turntable, cassette deck, CD player, tuner, amp, but it's just for producing sounds out of old media I still want to have. Sometimes I change things out. It's unimportant to me.
Fair enough, if you want to say you have created superior sound from streaming the internet into some equipment, then disregard my view. I personally think it's a fine line between audiophile and audio quackery. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not.
I don't think you're deluded in thinking your system is good to you or is better to you than mine would be. Nearly everything about sound reproduction is subjective and you're entitled to your view on your system the same way I'm entitled to mine. I'm not trying to win anything.

Nor am I saying that I've created superior sound from internet based music compared to non internet. For most of us, it's about getting it to sound as good which is quite a challenge hence the endless debates about DACs, different services, ethernet and digital cables etc.

It's your specific point that YouTube is as good as a high res paid for service and people paying for the latter are mugs. You yourself admit that YouTube is not as good as vinyl and so more for background music, which I can't argue with.

But then to say therefore there's no gain to be made from going high res (or higher than YouTube) is based upon an assumption that it's only for secondary or background listening. Those of us who have persevered to get it to sound as good aren't mugs at all we want the convenience, lack of masses of media storage and the ability to hear a new album in as good a quality as on vinyl on demand at no extra cost. To me that's not being a mug, it's the optimal decision for my individual situation.

In terms of whether it's worth the cost, that's a very personal decision based (as you said) on income relative to other expenses, and a choice about what matters most to us. I could call anyone who spends money on things that don't interest me a mug, but what would that say about my view on freedom of individual choice and respect for others differing opinions?
 

StingRay

Legend Wammer
Wammer
Apr 27, 2016
13,040
8,521
163
Suffolk coast, UK
AKA
Ray
HiFi Trade?
  1. No
To me the source is also about the whole experience. In the census I didn't even include my streaming equipment, as I don't consider it something that I "listen to". It is used for background music and to hear music that I haven't heard before. But if I like something, I will hunt it down on vinyl. If not available then CD. Then when I feel in the mood to sit back and listen, I will take the cover off the valve amp, switch it on, move my listening chair to my favourite spot, turn on the record player, get the album on, make sure all is clean and sit back with a glass of something and often look through the album cover and enjoy.

With streaming, I have it on in the background whilst doing something else, rather like the radio use to be at work.

I don't know whether it is because I haven't spent the time and effort on auditioning streaming equipment, but on my system, it is the weakest link in terms of quality and I am fine with that. Internet speed to my house isn't that great, so the occasional interruption of a sudden buffering pause tends to spoil my enjoyment if the music is my sole focus anyway.
It depends on how you do things. For me streaming is no different than playing a cd, apart from it is easier, quicker and more convenient. I tend to play the whole album unless I don't like it or get bored. With vinyl I can understand it's a bit more of a ritual, I had vinyl in the 70s, but don't have a turntable now. Also you have a choice of millions of albums, my cd collection is only about 300 and I don't play them very often. I played about 10 albums, in the last few days, that I have never heard before. But I like finding and listening to "new" music. A few I may buy although some of prices put me off, looked at one today, new is £88.

On my system I can't really tell the difference between streaming and cd, but often the master on streaming, is better than my cd version plus I have  more choice of which remaster or remix or recording. I see you have a Wadia cdp and stream with Sonos? If so that may account for the difference.

What streaming service are you using?

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Forum statistics

Threads
113,444
Messages
2,451,263
Members
70,783
Latest member
reg66

Latest Articles