slavedata

Do you trust magazine reviews

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16 hours ago, SergeAuckland said:

That's why I  think ALL subjective reviews without corresponding measurements are pointless.  Even in HFN, their measurements often  show that the subjective part is utter rubbish. If the reviewer genuinely heard what he wrote, he must have cloth ears, or just likes a crap sound.

S

I just received a copy of the new 490 page Floyd Toole book "Sound Reproduction" third edition.

In it, he writes about the limitations of some magazine's loudspeaker tests.

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52 minutes ago, moo-fi said:

I have a Nicky, doesn't care what it looks like but it must do low frequencies, at volume, all day or she will throw it in the skip.

lol, the DD subs even the smaller ones Ive heard go shockingly loud and play clean. But the JLs are good as well. They've been one of the main reference subs in the big car installs over the years, its basically whats in the sub I got. Theyre ridiculously expensive component woofers compared to the others which are very similar, but 'they claim' as others do to be the best in the business.

48 minutes ago, SergeAuckland said:

Something eventually has to break, and I would feel sorry for those around when it does, but I will be long gone by then. 

I'd say its pretty broken now, we may even look back one day and say this was the worst it ever was. We might have fairly decent living conditions and hi-fi / computers to play with but people in our modern world are still living in poverty, and this is when we have all the engineering resources to move massive things across the globe. Yet we still need things like 'Pudsey day' to help? Let's move all our premier league football players wages for 1 year into ending poverty. It probably wouldn't even need that much it'll probably be solved in a week/months worth of that!:rant:

34 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

The game changers are:

  • Automation
  • Artificial Intelligence
  • Robots

More & more tasks won't require humans.

Technological unemployment.:sos:

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3 minutes ago, eddie-baby said:

Let's move all our premier league football players wages for 1 year into ending poverty

And I will add to that, we'll have a whip around in the pub for them to play football, not the other way round with children in need!

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17 hours ago, TheFlash said:

Now I’m confused. George says measurements are pointless and Serge says they are the only thing that matters. They can’t both be right; I suppose they could both be wrong. I feel uncomfortable with disharmony.

Is there a unifying statement here? Does this apply to magazine reviews but also more broadly? Something like “in hifi, the subjective and the objective, the measured and the unmeasurable, the quantitative and the qualitative, are meaningless without each other”? Or do we have to stay all binary either/or?

Depends on whether you believe most SS amps sound the same. If you believe they do then the measurements confirm that as most SS amps have adequate measurements.

If you believe they sound different then there must be something else going on. It could be the measurements are not adequate to describe the sound or people are just imagining it.

Do you believe most SS amps sound the same and are you imagining the differences?

Then you can go to the extreme position of myself and Serge. If all SS amps sound the same then go for the cheapest that meets your needs for power, weight and reliability(Serge). If measurements do not adequately describe sound quality, listen and find an amplifier you like the sound of. You could end up with Audionotes, which measure badly but for me sound superb. Your choice, your paying and maybe even listening. 

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5 hours ago, Speedskater said:

The game changers are:

  • Automation
  • Artificial Intelligence
  • Robots

More & more tasks won't require humans.

When I was a student, computers were just being installed in Universities and larger institutions. They were large, expensive units, that took up a whole floor of a building, but it was already thought that computers would put a lot of people out of work, and how would society cope with all that unemployment and all that leisure time. . That didn't happen. 

When PCs first started to be installed in offices, there were thousands of short-hand typists in typing pools, and those are no longer, but there aren't armies of unemployed (mostly) women short-hand typists and secretaries. Workforces evolve, and I have no doubt that AI will similarly change the workforce, but people will find things to do. It's possible the working week might shrink, in France it's already down to a nominal 35 hours a week, it may well be down to 30 hours a week in some years, and across the Developed world.  On the other hand, it might not reduce, people will just work differently, maybe even live more fulfilled lives. 

It's not AI or technological change that bothers me about the future, it's the inherent need to expand the population, which requires economic growth to sustain, which requires an expanding population which requires.........

We're in a positive feedback loop that, as with all positive feedback, ends up unstable.

No politician that has to think in terms of today's popularity and tomorrow's election can afford to take a long-term (say 100 years) view. We see this on climate change, which won't affect us at all, won't affect our children much, but might start to affect our grandchildren and more so our great-grandchildren yet unborn. 

Yet who can take a 100 year view? 

That's what worries me.

S.

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52 minutes ago, SergeAuckland said:

but it was already thought that computers would put a lot of people out of work, and how would society cope with all that unemployment and all that leisure time. . That didn't happen. 

Or did it ?

This is going a little off topic here from the OP, but it's interesting all the same, and there's no stringent rules so why not have a discuss :)

Nobody can say for sure that it absolutely didnt. If you listen to government massaged figures they tell us nothing about unemployment. Figures represent only a small portion of what is actually happening, nobody should look at figures and take them as finite. And you'll like this Serge been a Certified Measurist. Studies focus on a subject, how that subject is measured can vary greatly, especially with things such as population surveys, I've spent some time studying this at college. And on the subject of modern computers the way that even just one can handle spreadsheets, documents, calculations and the speed at which they do it would have accounted for a large army of a workforce at one time. So I cant see how you can say it hasn't had a serious effect on jobs. Even if some have found other things to do.

It's just impossible to generalise about anything. On a small technological scale, I've seen more and more local garages close down because cars are just that much more reliable now, breakdowns will one day, be a thing of the past. What happens to all the AA men then ? :) Technology does affect jobs, and sure some people get better ones, but there are still large numbers of people still struggling to get by even in the UK on minimum wage (those who can get jobs or sometimes are even forced to take them).

But I'm with you 100% on the being bothered about the inherent need to expand population Serge. That probably bothers me more than anything else with regards to societal issues.

But this is the wrong forum to be putting the world to rights :) but still very interesting, and after all, it does affect some of the BS (bad science, and the other one as well :) ) that we might get in our hi-fi mags.

There is nothing wrong with looking at the world in an optimistic light now but there are things happening around us that we just have limited knowledge on.

But its all these guys (and gals) fault I say :D

37698114465_85d6e2cf51_o.jpg

Edited by eddie-baby
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9 minutes ago, eddie-baby said:

Here you go straight from the horse's mouth :D

38011133074_6f22ee8186_o.jpg

As they tell me not to believe what I read, should I believe them? If so, then I'm believing what I read in the press, if I don't believe them, then I should believe what I read.

It's all very confusing. Somewhat like the Prisoner Dilemma.

S

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10 minutes ago, SergeAuckland said:

As they tell me not to believe what I read, should I believe them? If so, then I'm believing what I read in the press, if I don't believe them, then I should believe what I read.

It's all very confusing. Somewhat like the Prisoner Dilemma.

S

xD

Well, that was slightly mean of me as the rest of the add says this. Now we can understand what is meant by only getting part of the story. And most of us only do ever get part of the story :)

23863733117_944c46d114_o.jpg

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"Voice coils of God", that's exactly what I've read for all the time best products of B&W on WhatHIFI's site. I got a pair of Β&W 601 S3 to see  what was the hype all about them. 

Well, not impressed for being the "voice coils of God"... 

As I've heard from others, I agree: Recessed mids and boosted high frequencies. I would say nice for background listening, even the highs being boosted.

Some people think they need 200watt amps (!) just for headroom to drive them at their best? Those people also propose to drive them with PA amps... LOL.
 

Edited by FTW

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On 21/11/2017 at 06:58, slavedata said:

What's your experience?

99% of reviews are reports of preference. Preference is a personal affair and thus only useful to the individual in question. Useless for anything other than raising expectations for an unlikely outcome or loo entertainment.

Measurements are useful so I look at those but avoid the interpretation that accompanies them (I do my own).

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Super Wammer
2 hours ago, tuga said:

99% of reviews are reports of preference. Preference is a personal affair and thus only useful to the individual in question. Useless for anything other than raising expectations for an unlikely outcome or loo entertainment.

Measurements are useful so I look at those but avoid the interpretation that accompanies them (I do my own).

Tuga I think that you are being too narrow on this point. If a reviewer says I prefer this amp or this amp is better the reviewer is declaring a preference exactly the same as people on this forum. However if the reviewer says that product A in comparison with product B has a deeper bass output then this is not a preference it is a comparison; it only becomes a preference if the reviewer comments on their preference of the two products. 

Just like people who contribute to this forum the reader needs to understand the writer’s writing style to understand the magnitude of any statements compared to the readers own experiences.

There is no difference to me between a magazine reviewer or a forum member. 

Edited by DomT
Typo
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As Dom suggests, forums are an alternative to magazine reviews. I never read magazines myself, but I regularly follow forums like DIY Audio and Audio Asylum. There are some very high skill guys on these forums - designers like Nelson Pass and a lot of industry professionals, lecturers, researchers and semi-retired electronics engineers who enjoy posting. 

The other huge benefit of forums is that they're interactive - you ask questions and you get very high-skill answers from the gurus as well as a lot of feedback from the regular posters. Hopefully a minimum of vested interests also. 

The other thing about the above 2 forums is that they put a lot of emphasis on design. You expect to see schematics of all the components they discuss so you really do know what's being debated. With magazine reviews you sometimes don't even get the names of the tubes used in tube gear.  

Edited by pmcuk

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Super Wammer
10 hours ago, FTW said:

"voice coils of God"... 

No wonder I'm an atheist!

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The sin of omission is often preferable to the sin of making up stuff about things  that you know too little about. The magazines will do the former,  wannabe gurus on forums will do the latter. A little knowledge is often a dangerous thing.

The ONLY thing you can trust in a magazine review, or a forum review, is the subjective opinion. BUT then you must consider how experienced the reviewer is. How much kit have they heard, how long they have been in the hobby, how much understanding they have of the item they are reviewing, how much time they have taken to try the item in different combinations, how consistent their views have been over a number of years, how independent they are. Etc, etc.

Magazine reviewer or forum contributor...you must work out who you can trust. More importantly, you must become your own expert on what you like and what you don't like. We all hear differently, so you will only ever become your own expert if you use your own ears. If you constantly seek to be spoon fed only the opinions of others then you will only end up with something that somebody else likes.

Edited by savvypaul
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