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Conversion of Monitor Audio Monitor 11 to Active Crossovers


bencat
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12dB is a lot. I'd attenuate mids and tweeters by 1-3dB vs your bass driver and just listen to results. I'd also have my main level set at -3dB to avoid digital clipping. It doesn't have to be as much though. 

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2 minutes ago, insider9 said:

12dB is a lot. I'd attenuate mids and tweeters by 1-3dB vs your bass driver and just listen to results. I'd also have my main level set at -3dB to avoid digital clipping. It doesn't have to be as much though. 

The 2x4 HD has some headroom built in, so that shouldn't be an issue. 

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Okay tried a little measurement but frankly just sort of confused myself as I could not decide after each sweep if the line was flatter or not as the differences were not great . Problem here is I do not undersant the measurements fully or what they mean for the sound . I will need to organise another day of help with Andrew at mine and see if he can talk me through some of this.

However even with a short USB lead and sitting next to the system I can plug the Minidsp in to my Lap Top and then use music and try some things out . Much easier if not as accurate as measurements.

Right I have now got a handle on this and inital settings are Cross Over at 1500 not 2000 Hz , LR 48dB crossover (also tried BH 48dB but this makes Treble a bit sharp but does add a little air) HF is -1db and this sound a bit more filled in and together . I am sure it is not perfect but frankly it is very enjoyable the precsision this gives music is very addictive the sound has real speed which I have not noticed before . Bass is never going to be room shaking but then these are not huge speakers so they are not likely to cause the earth to move .

Having said that listening to Poor Folks by Allen Toussaint with a big band and the bass is doing what I want driving the music and giving it that dance inducing sound . I may have to cut a rug at some stage but be assured there will be no pictures.

All in all I have to encourage anyone with whatever knwoledge or ability to give this a try . If you have the skills make the cabinets and buy your drive units according to what you want . However if you just keep a watch on e-bay and like I did find a slightly less than pretty pair of speakers with bi wire already installed then aside from making them look nice the other side of setting up and getting things installed is really very simple .

With some of the Wammers here and the hand holding they offer then there is nothing to worry about . I freely admit that my set up is a little more expensive and has more boxes than is really needed but I wanted to have tow matching amps which is not needed . I also did not want amps insdie the speakers which is very easy to do and with HifiBerry Beocreate it need not cost you a fortune either .

I am sure this project is by no means finished but a single day of by ear tuning has resulted in a really impressive result that is so good to listen too I am sorely tempted to just leave things in place . I know myself too well to say this is what I will do , but I could and be content with my current results . What happens next is a nystery .

Edited by bencat
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Andrew, the way I read your last post suggests that after initial confusion with measurements you have reached a satisfactory result from tuning by ear (your edited post). if you do need my input I am happy to come over & help, just let me know.

Andrew

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Hi Andrew

I have made a difference to the tuning of the speakers though they were quite good straight from what we measured and noted when at your house. They are now playing as I type this at quite low levels and the quality of the music is quite startling . I know they need to be finessed and that there is scope for doing that .

I will try and see what happens over the next few weeks and then contact you and see if you could come over and we can do a bit more testing and measuring and we can talk over the results and see if I can get a bit of understanding of what the readings mean . Sadly I am still a little in the dark about what each change I make does to the signal and how that looks on the screen . Doing it by ear is much easier for me as I know what I want to hear and how I want to hear it and if I get as today a rough guide of what to change and the guide lines it is quite easy to make the changes while listening using the Minidsp and the remote .

What I need to get a handle on next is what to put in to the Equalisation element of the Minidsp and how I can set that up to have a more senstive touch at adjusting the sound to get what I want to hear.

Once the above is achieved it will then be interesting to me to then measure the fully set up speakers that I am happy with and see how they measure both from the 1 meter position as we did at yours and also from the listening position . Maybe then I can see what I like and how it measures rather than what I would measure and then transfer to the speakers to get as near as possible to so called perfect measurement response. From what all those who have tried it  say the perfect flat response is not that great to listen too so our imperfect ears want an imperfect sound that matches them rather than a notional measured flat line

Can I say straight away I am not saying this for anyone else other than me for my ears and my equipment in my room . I fully understand and know that for many the idea of not striving for the notional perfect response is not acceptable and I am not saying it is right or the best way to go . It is just a conclusion I have made while doing this project . I have found that what I really always want is a system that plays music the way I want or just think I know how it should sound and then gives me real joy . I may well be wrong and have to go back but at this moment it is the goal I want to strive for and when I get there we will have to see if I like what I have created.

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As far as a 'flat' response goes I am in complete agreement, most music sounds too lifeless and thin without some sort of house curve.

You may recall that on my system I use the four DEQX remote presets with varying levels of bass boost, position 1 being neutral & unadjusted (sounds good with bass heavy albums) & progressive uplifts through to position 4 (for the thinnest sounding albums). I can achieve very similar sounding frequency response whatever the source, to my listening preference (deep but clean, tight & very fast bass with a lot of transient slam)

At the end of the day it's about enjoying what you hear rather than trying to recreate some sort of anechoic chamber 'perfection'.

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Okay I now have a day off tomorrow and will be able to spend some time on getting these speakers a little more sorted . Now I know that I need to use the REW Auto Room EQ function and measure one channel at a time then save and import the filters as generated by REW in to the Minidsp .

What I need to get a little help with is some basic questions ,I would take these to PM in most cases but thought it best to be in the thread so others can see how little I know and what this step might entail .

First question is do I run a measurement sweep for each set of drivers on their own ? So just set up a sweep for the Bass units using the crossover points as the the start and finish points and then do the same for the Treble units on their own ?

Or should I just be doing a sweep with both drivers working ?

Once I have the basic filter setting (and saved on Config 1 ) I can then transfer the same things to Config 2 and then do an on the fly listen and adjust , Or would it be better to get this basic output filter as near as flat as possible and keep that settings in the output channels and then apply a house curve to the input channel to adjust the sound a little for my preference ?

Any advice on the start settings to use for the sweep measurement in REW would be appreciated .

If you need any information of the current set up then let me know what and I will add it in .

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Andrew, if you recall when we measured these speakers in my garden, I checked time alignment between the individual drivers and they were fine so as you are now working on in-room eq, it should be for the speakers as a whole including crossovers, not individual drivers.

Edited by Drewan77
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Thanks Andrew

I think that it might be how REW works rather than what you have which is more sophisticated and so simpler (ie the units do lots of the work for you ) . After reading what they have given on the Minidsp forum I think I have to do things a step at a time . While they advise to do this without the Crossover working I tend to agree with you that I should include the the crossover working but still feel that I will need to do individual measurement and filters for the bass and treble as under the EQ it is for each output with bass and treble having individual channel out puts each with it s own EQ filter . I can link the L/R Treble and the L/R Bass so that any change to one changes the other but do not see how I can do an overall eq unless I apply to the channel in .

Tony has used this unit for quite a while so maybe he can offer some sage words later on .

Whatever happens I am going to use tomorrow to spend some time trying a few things as I now have a mic stand , long lead for headphone out from my PC and long usb lead . So with luck I can do all that I need to from my PC and make changes and hear the differences.

www.minidsp.com/applications/auto-eq-with-rew

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6 minutes ago, bencat said:

Thanks Andrew

I think that it might be how REW works rather than what you have which is more sophisticated and so simpler (ie the units do lots of the work for you ) . After reading what they have given on the Minidsp forum I think I have to do things a step at a time . While they advise to do this without the Crossover working I tend to agree with you that I should include the the crossover working but still feel that I will need to do individual measurement and filters for the bass and treble as under the EQ it is for each output with bass and treble having individual channel out puts each with it s own EQ filter . I can link the L/R Treble and the L/R Bass so that any change to one changes the other but do not see how I can do an overall eq unless I apply to the channel in .

Tony has used this unit for quite a while so maybe he can offer some sage words later on .

Whatever happens I am going to use tomorrow to spend some time trying a few things as I now have a mic stand , long lead for headphone out from my PC and long usb lead . So with luck I can do all that I need to from my PC and make changes and hear the differences.

www.minidsp.com/applications/auto-eq-with-rew

Hi Andrew

You can try both approaches and see how they pan out, of course. If you choose to adjust the FR of the speaker as a whole (crossover active, all drive units operating) then you can install filters as necessary in the PEQ section under Inputs & Routing. If you choose to fix the HF/LF sections individually, you would use the PEQ section under the appropriate ouput channel.

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1 hour ago, Tony_J said:

Hi Andrew

You can try both approaches and see how they pan out, of course. If you choose to adjust the FR of the speaker as a whole (crossover active, all drive units operating) then you can install filters as necessary in the PEQ section under Inputs & Routing. If you choose to fix the HF/LF sections individually, you would use the PEQ section under the appropriate ouput channel.

Thanks Tony

Would it be best to measure if doing a full filter (crossover active , all drive units operating) at a meter point between the two speakers  or from the listening position ? Or would it be best to do each speaker on its own at say 1 meter from the speaker as we did the original measurements .

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8 minutes ago, bencat said:

Thanks Tony

Would it be best to measure if doing a full filter (crossover active , all drive units operating) at a meter point between the two speakers  or from the listening position ? Or would it be best to do each speaker on its own at say 1 meter from the speaker as we did the original measurements .

Best to do just one speaker on its own at 1 metre, otherwise you will get interference effects between the two speakers. It would be interesting to measure each speaker to see if there is any significant difference in performance between them. 

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6 minutes ago, Tony_J said:

Best to do just one speaker on its own at 1 metre, otherwise you will get interference effects between the two speakers. It would be interesting to measure each speaker to see if there is any significant difference in performance between them. 

Thanks Tony now I have my set job for tomorrow and can get this set up . I will try and post some graphs of before and after and if I can Left and Right unit .

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Well as the football tonight so pants up to now decided to have a small pre day off session measurement and try the EQ on REW . Well tested each speaker and set the EQ exactly as the REW said . Loaded them up to the EQ on the inputs one to each channel .

Results are certainly finessed and smoother there also seems to be better imaging with the main image now being very central with other things either side . I have aslo noticed that the speakers on the right material (not all the time) start to disappear with definte sounds coming from points wider and higher than the speakers themselves . Front to back is not great but better than it was  .

I have included the graphs below for the Left speaker full crossover activated all drivers working  .

I think tomorrow I will do a left and right test bass then treble and add the filters to the outputs as each speaker . Will try and show the graphs when i finish them and give another brief description of what I am hearing .

MA 11 Filter Graph.jpg

MA 11 Impulse Graph Left Speaker.jpg

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Well all of the above now done and each filter sent to the indivdual driver units after sweep testing each unit . Sad to say this is the first time I have completed something were there has been no improvement if fact it was a back ward step . Using the overall filter on the two input channels measured for the L and R spekaers offers a much more intergrated and acceptable sound with music sounding more what I want.

Individual filters on the outputs was a little disjointed and seemed to emphasise each individual unit and did not intergrate them with each other well .This is probably easy to fix if I knew which paramaters to change but not sure and what little changes I made were not really easy to identify .

Given the continuous improvemnet in this project from its start and how easy each step has been to follow it is a surprise that I have not had backward steps before now . I suspect this is is probably due to the guidance of those on here who have made some of the errors in the past and just pointed me in directions they know work .

I am now very pleased (read smug) with the results of this project I could happily use this speaker in any of my systems and produce a sound that is pleasing to me . I now know for certain that this will be coming with me to Kegworth and then all those that have any interest can listen to what I have produced and either find fault (all too easy and often fair ) or see this for what it has been for me a chance to change an item in a major way and make a result that is very much better than the original .

MA 11 Left and Right full working at Listening Position.jpg

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