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42 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

Well I've seen some outrageous decisions and statements throughout this sorry process but little makes my blood boil like this denial of parliamentary democracy. It's frankly outrageous. Let's hope the pushback is swift and merciless.

If "democracy" is your criteria on the subject of Brexit then  we should have been long gone by now, Just sayin'

You can't just pick and choose the sort of democracy that suits ones argument.

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Super Wammer
8 minutes ago, uzzy said:

At the end of the day as I said - those who voted against have their reasons and those who voted for have theirs and it seems never the twain shall meet.  

Precisely.

I fervently hope that Boris gets us out by the 31st, preferably on a clean no deal basis but I understand the motives of those who wish the opposite. The sparring of keyboard warriors on here will achieve little apart from raising blood pressure.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

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Super Wammer
12 minutes ago, mr.me said:

I

If "democracy" is your criteria on the subject of Brexit then  we should have been long gone by now, Just sayin'

You can't just pick and choose the sort of democracy that suits ones argument.

Democracy is a process, not a one-off decision.

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15 minutes ago, mr.me said:

I

If "democracy" is your criteria on the subject of Brexit then  we should have been long gone by now, Just sayin'

You can't just pick and choose the sort of democracy that suits ones argument.

Wasn't the referendum was advisory, not binding?

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Super Wammer
15 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

Precisely.

I fervently hope that Boris gets us out by the 31st, preferably on a clean no deal basis but I understand the motives of those who wish the opposite. The sparring of keyboard warriors on here will achieve little apart from raising blood pressure.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

You should get out more.

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Just now, TheFlash said:

You should get out more.

And buy a decent newspaper...

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Super Wammer

As is said in playgrounds, "Same back to you, and with brass knobs on it". xD

Or at least that is what we used to say.

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Moderator

Ladies, gentlemen and children.

This is the Public Bar. Swearing is against the AUP.

We're all frankly sick of the topic anyway. If you can't keep it civil, it's getting binned.

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Super Wammer
19 minutes ago, rabski said:

Ladies, gentlemen and children.

This is the Public Bar. Swearing is against the AUP.

We're all frankly sick of the topic anyway. If you can't keep it civil, it's getting binned.

Apologies, I thought it was in the Car Park.

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Super Wammer
30 minutes ago, tuga said:

Wasn't the referendum advisory, not binding?

Yes.

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Super Wammer
36 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

Democracy is a process, not a one-off decision.

Best definition of Democracy I am told is     Definition of democracy. 1a : government by the people especially : rule of the majority. b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.

What we have is a bunch of elected MPs actually operating in opposition of the majority vote from a Referendum - and as Democracy at its heart has rule of the majority - one could argue (and it is almost impossible to argue against) that acting against the majority is undemocratic.

The problem has come where that has been overridden (the EU wants is to keep holding an election or vote until you get the result you are looking for IMO) .. we might not be here now if Ireland had not been forced to rerun their referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (which of course they voted to oppose in the first election) and again we might not be in now if Major had had a referendum on Maastricht and Blair on the Lisbon Treaty (and worse he promised one and never did it).

There is no doubt the anger of many of the British Population at having been signed up to Maastricht and the Lisbon Treaty when (as illustrated in the leave stay referendum) a huge chunk of the population were not in agreement with either of those moves.

Whichever way you look at it - it has to be sad to think that a large number of our MPs have no intention of doing what the majority of their electorate want, thinking that they know better.   That is just pure contempt.   Also I am convinced the fannying around by May to come up with a deal that sort of gave Brexit but actually keeps us in the EU has not helped as all of this should have been done and dusted three years ago.  If we had said when faced with the EU process to exit,  we are not prepared to negotiate a divorce agreement without a free trade deal (rather than the other way around) and if you insist we are leaving on a Hard Brexit then the EU may have been in a position to actually negotiate - but who knows that is water under the bridge now.   Whichever way you look at it all those MPs from day 1 demanding to be involved and to publicise all details of negotiations left the negotiator with no powers to negotiate.   As such I will always be convinced the undermining of the process from day 1 by MPs who in election manifestos said they would support Brexit will be the ones to blame for us not being able to exit on terms that would be less detrimental in the short term.

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21 minutes ago, uzzy said:

Best definition of Democracy I am told is     Definition of democracy. 1a : government by the people especially : rule of the majority. b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.

What we have is a bunch of elected MPs actually operating in opposition of the majority vote from a Referendum - and as Democracy at its heart has rule of the majority - one could argue (and it is almost impossible to argue against) that acting against the majority is undemocratic.

Pretty sure our current system of FPP rather than proportional representation means the concept of majority rule is breached every election.

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Super Wammer
1 hour ago, uzzy said:

Best definition of Democracy I am told is     Definition of democracy. 1a : government by the people especially : rule of the majority. b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.

What we have is a bunch of elected MPs actually operating in opposition of the majority vote from a Referendum - and as Democracy at its heart has rule of the majority - one could argue (and it is almost impossible to argue against) that acting against the majority is undemocratic.

The problem has come where that has been overridden (the EU wants is to keep holding an election or vote until you get the result you are looking for IMO) .. we might not be here now if Ireland had not been forced to rerun their referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (which of course they voted to oppose in the first election) and again we might not be in now if Major had had a referendum on Maastricht and Blair on the Lisbon Treaty (and worse he promised one and never did it).

There is no doubt the anger of many of the British Population at having been signed up to Maastricht and the Lisbon Treaty when (as illustrated in the leave stay referendum) a huge chunk of the population were not in agreement with either of those moves.

Whichever way you look at it - it has to be sad to think that a large number of our MPs have no intention of doing what the majority of their electorate want, thinking that they know better.   That is just pure contempt.   Also I am convinced the fannying around by May to come up with a deal that sort of gave Brexit but actually keeps us in the EU has not helped as all of this should have been done and dusted three years ago.  If we had said when faced with the EU process to exit,  we are not prepared to negotiate a divorce agreement without a free trade deal (rather than the other way around) and if you insist we are leaving on a Hard Brexit then the EU may have been in a position to actually negotiate - but who knows that is water under the bridge now.   Whichever way you look at it all those MPs from day 1 demanding to be involved and to publicise all details of negotiations left the negotiator with no powers to negotiate.   As such I will always be convinced the undermining of the process from day 1 by MPs who in election manifestos said they would support Brexit will be the ones to blame for us not being able to exit on terms that would be less detrimental in the short term.

I tell you what: let's have a referendum on the death penalty; on gay marriage; on whether religion should be banned or compulsory. Crikey, let's just have referendums on everything and get rid of Parliament altogether!

We elect MPs to represent us, not to do everything we want. They don't just represent us, they have to use their consciences to do what they believe is right for the country.

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I keep hearing how it's an MP's primary duty, either to deliver "The Will of the People", or to represent the will of their Constituents above all else. Well it isn't, according to Churchill:

'The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy.' Sir Winston Churchill on the Duties of a Member of Parliament.

Then there are the 2 quotes from D. Davis about Democracy and how a Referendum should be conducted,

"If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

"There is a proper role for referendums in constitutional change, but only if done properly. If it is not done properly, it can be a dangerous tool.

Referendums should be held when the electorate are in the best possible position to make a judgment. They should be held when people can view all the arguments for and against and when those arguments have been rigorously tested. In short, referendums should be held when people know exactly what they are getting. So legislation should be debated by Members of Parliament on the Floor of the House, and then put to the electorate for the voters to judge. 

We should not ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and tell me them to trust us to fill in the details afterwards. For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as well informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for. Referendums need to be treated ais an addition to the parliamentary process, not as a substitute for it".

if the Referendum had been Legally binding, it would have been declared void by the Courts, due to the criminal conviction. This is hardly a shining light for our democracy.

I am assuming that those who voted to Leave, did so with the best interests of the Country in mind....so how do you get from there, to No Deal, which as well as costing at least £15 Bn, will in all probability see:

- The break up of the UK

- A return of the Border in Ireland, breaking the GFA and thus providing the means and motive to the New IRA to recruit new members and resume their terrorist campaign.

- A very weak Pound and a Recession...along with all the other downsides that have been mentioned before. 

For the Country to begin healing, both sides need to compromise. The "You lost  get over it" and "We're going for the most extreme form of Brexit possible, no matter the damage"  is hardly going to do that.

 
 
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Super Wammer

Let me put this out there and then run and hide.

I'm a broad-minded guy. I have friends and relatives who are carnivores and vegetarians and understand both positions; likewise with friends who are socialists and arch-capitalists; with friends who voted Leave and who voted Remain; who are religious and who are anti-religious. The list could be longer but I'll leave it there. I can understand and I respect all these perspectives even if I disagree strongly with some of them. But...

... what I completely fail to understand is how anyone with any intelligence can think a No Deal Brexit is in the interests of the country over the short, medium and long terms. It is truly shocking. It demonstrates, in my not very humble opinion, a narrow and warped worldview developed through a diet of unhealthy misinformation over decades and perhaps a lack of exposure to other cultures. I find it depressing and it makes me angry. Yes, I am talking about the newspapers people read and whether they enjoy travelling overseas. That's appallingly patronising of me (I thought I'd say it before you do).

I'll get my coat.

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