TheFlash

Bluesound Node 2 vs "pimped" Node 2i with linear PSU

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Super Wammer
30 minutes ago, Tony_J said:

They probably can't hear when they've fallen in the water...

Surely you are not suggesting setting up a water trap for the bluebottle? :P

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Super Wammer
1 hour ago, DomT said:

What film do you think it’s from? I think that you really don’t know (as doesn’t google)  The actual clip is very numerous and not disgraceful at all.

1 hour ago, MGTOW said:

Then perhaps you should stop trying to show off and say what you mean.

I do not do films, no real interest. Google refers to the Willie Wonka movie where the term is used in a most disparaging context.

I do not mean anything other than exactly those words.... ‘and I bid you a good day’ and a wink at an apology even though one wasn’t really due; you take offence far too easily.

The film reference was a joke because you were so very upset about me quoting you; just like the man in the film The Highlander. 

There is a scene set in 1783 where a man is challenged to a duel by a person who is offended by words said by the other man. The man who said the words was immortal and despite being ‘killed’ by the offended person several times in the end apologies for having offended the man and bids him good day. But how did I know that you were not a film guy?

Lighten up it’s just hifi; we are not working on a cure for Coronavirus!

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4 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

This thread currently has 95 pages which is small beer in the great scheme of things. The Dave DAC thread over on Head-Fi has 989 pages with no sign of running out of stream. 

Are most of them about blind testing?

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Moderator
3 minutes ago, Warszawa said:

Are most of them about blind testing?

I think most of it is about blind writing... :whistle:

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Super Wammer

At least the video that I linked to included a man in a duel who blinded himself with his wig and he still won!

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12 minutes ago, Tony_J said:

I think most of it is about blind writing... :whistle:

The blind leading the blind, or should that be the deaf leading the deaf.

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1 hour ago, MGTOW said:

BeeRay, Firstly, what you describe is not an ABX test, sorry to be picky but it is indicative of how little understanding of these things there is in hifi circles.

Anecdotes of this type are plentiful, some ring true, others are clearly made up and are of the 'my wife came into the room and said...' variety. There are very few properly documented blind tests and even they get bogged down in statistical analysis that fail to offer any satisfactory conclusions. 

They are too complex and cumbersome to be used in hifi but that does not mean that they are in any way flawed, just that they are, mostly, not worth the effort, it explains my view that such tests are pointless as a tool for someone choosing a system for themselves.

What I do advocate, very strongly, is that enthusiasts should take part in any sensible blind test. The test does not have to be scientifically rigorous, probably not even double blind, but as long as the levels are matched and you can not see what is being played that will be enough.

I have conducted and taken part in such tests a fair number of times, relating the results would be anecdotal, so largely pointless, but one thing I will say is that everyone taking part were surprised by the results and even more surprised by the degree of difficulty involved in making choices and identifying particular products.

I do know what ABX testing is, I have done some online although I did know what was being tested. I don't have the full test details but my point is some people are closed minded or they have strong beliefs in something, they won't admit to hearing differences or if they do hear a difference they may put it down to their imagination playing tricks. These ABX tests will not always reveal differences, some things need longer periods to show differences. Some music is more revealing than others. I'm somewhere in the middle, I'm sceptical about some of these changes  but I'm open minded to try them. WhatHiFi did some blind tests and they did find differences in cables. I believe another magazine also does blind tests and does find differences. 

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Super Wammer

Of course the ultimate test is how many people stay in your room at Keggie and/or ask for specific tracks to be played ....that determines if a setup works imho.

Edited by MF 1000
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BeeRay. Please be careful. ABX testing is quite specific, it is not designed to reveal differences, it does something rather different.

A/B blind testing is different, you are asked if you can hear a difference and if so which do you prefer, that is it and is the basis of most blind testing. Obviously going into a test determined not to hear any differences is pointless, do people really do that?

In my experience the opposite is usually true, people go into tests expecting that the 'huge' differences they hear in normal listening will be easy to hear in a controlled environment. When this turns out not to be the case, they are usually pretty taken aback.

A few years ago I was involved in a couple of events at WHF that allowed a number of members of the hifi buying public access to their facilities. In informal discussions the prospect of setting up a blind test (of cables in this instance) was put forward, initially some of the WHF crew seemed to be 'up for it', but it was quickly nixed by management.

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2 hours ago, George 47 said:

The more brain activity seen on EEG or through PET then the more positive the response?

2 hours ago, George 47 said:

The machine measures your audio response?

Maybe and maybe not.  Although not my area of study I would say one could not draw conclusions regarding anything qualitative.  All it indicates to me is frequencies above and below the supposed human hearing threshold can, in certain conditions, show a biological reaction.  

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14 minutes ago, MGTOW said:

BeeRay. Please be careful. ABX testing is quite specific, it is not designed to reveal differences, it does something rather different.

A/B blind testing is different, you are asked if you can hear a difference and if so which do you prefer, that is it and is the basis of most blind testing. Obviously going into a test determined not to hear any differences is pointless, do people really do that?

In my experience the opposite is usually true, people go into tests expecting that the 'huge' differences they hear in normal listening will be easy to hear in a controlled environment. When this turns out not to be the case, they are usually pretty taken aback.

A few years ago I was involved in a couple of events at WHF that allowed a number of members of the hifi buying public access to their facilities. In informal discussions the prospect of setting up a blind test (of cables in this instance) was put forward, initially some of the WHF crew seemed to be 'up for it', but it was quickly nixed by management.

What is ABX testing for then? I thought it was to see if people could identify which is A or B? 

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It is.

First you play A then you play B. Then you play X which is either A or B and chose whichever you think X is.

As I said, quite specific, you are not being asked to compare A and B and express a preference, just whether you can reliably tell which is which.

Sorry if I am getting a bit 'gobby' over this, but any kind of scientific testing needs to be carefully arranged and explained for it to mean anything. A/B and ABX testing are different and sometimes this needs to be explained, apologies if I am trying to teach you 'how to suck eggs'.

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Super Wammer

Just a suggestion, a few posts on methods of sound quality evaluation is interesting and relevant in a thread discussing differences in sound due to different power supplies. If one has a bee in ones bonnet about this subject and wishes to discourse at length then why not start a thread and discuss it there.

My boredom threshold for this subject was reached quite few pages ago and the thought of another dozen pages discussing this is reducing the chances of me staying awake.

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Super Wammer
2 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

Just a suggestion, a few posts on methods of sound quality evaluation is interesting and relevant in a thread discussing differences in sound due to different power supplies. If one has a bee in ones bonnet about this subject and wishes to discourse at length then why not start a thread and discuss it there.

My boredom threshold for this subject was reached quite few pages ago and the thought of another dozen pages discussing this is reducing the chances of me staying awake.

You may recall that about a milllion posts ago I created a thread for just this purpose. Time for a reminder, perhaps:

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Super Wammer
17 hours ago, MGTOW said:

We were discussing scientific testing to establish whether listeners can reliably tell the difference/improvements between hifi equipment. the only correct way to do this is properly conducted, double blind testing. This can be carried out with a group or with an individual, just as long as there are sufficient tests to give statistically viable results.

I was quoted as saying something that I did not and would not say in that context. 

I asked for a retraction, which I STILL have not received. Some quote of what I said in thread about a different subject was posted instead, not at all relevant.

I'm picking on this post at random, having seen several others. You'd be better moving this to PM, resolving it there (or not) and bringing back the joy of reconcilation.

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