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Super Wammer

i used the caravan one it is 25mm wide or 20 , the chassis is filled with all kinds, of stuff it gave it the extra weight , pete

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On 31/08/2020 at 02:38, gwernaffield said:

the so let me get this correct , you take the bush out if the base does not fit , on the shorter i.e 300x300x299  taking the bush out will allow for the distance that is wrong ,

as long as it fits the holes it will work ,

the bush hole it is opened to allow mistake in   measurement by the owner , not every one is so precise,  you are talking thousand of a mm and yes the only way some times is to make the base smaller it cannot move around because the other 2 hold it in position  if Michell had made the parts to a very high tolerance the bases would be the same, how ever when you are dealing with posts that are out of triangular shape, and they can be leaning , to one side or another ,   you have to try and make stuff work, i suggest that if you are not happy send them back and charlie who  arrange a refund when they arrive back  ,  we only change the inner and the bottom size of the base if it is far out , the others  still holding the position , the base you say that may be lose is held in place by the weight of the chassis, and held in position by the other 2, , as it still cannot move as much as the springs,

all the problems stem from Michell, if they had a tolerance of .1 of a mm you would be very lucky , but as the adjuster can range by over half a mm in size and taper ether end, allowances have to be made,

the only true way is to make stainless steel adjuster , to 10,00mm , and make sure the inner post that fits inside the adjuster hole is ground to the center of the adjuster , but the cost would double .and you would still have to remake the acrylic to a high tolerance forcing the price up , so charlie just opens the bush up to suite the size of the adjuster shaft , as we cannot see what the sizes off the adjusters are , the older versions were never opened up in the bush which caused them to stick , we learned with the help of wam and aos members  what the problem was, the adjuster was over size by half a mm, but to make it more complected on the older gyros that have the older style solid adjuster on the mk1 or 2, the thread and the shaft diameter are imperial , so now you have to go from metric to imperial

and back to metric again , and hope to god that michell ,who  put the  holes in the acrylic are  correct due to the higher cost of the split bush with it being imperial ,

i have talked to Jonathan nye engineer at Michell  over the sizes of the holes and why they were all different ,  the explanation was they were having problems with the casting ,some times the machine milled the inner web thickness on the chassis too thin or it milled through them scrapping the chassis, so they just reduced the hole size , to get around the chassis not being made scrap , also not changing  position of the chassis  holes, just the diameter of the hole, , 

Charlie could just make a washer and put holes in with out the 28,5 , the design is a way of taking any movement out of the pylon base,  i thought we had seen the last of the acrylic being not a equilateral triangle but allowing for the acrylic holes to be out by up to 1.25mm out  by taking the bush out , , except when the acrylic is 2mm out , a special size base will be made, but as you may or may not appreciate   the pylons have been sold around the world , again if there is a problem it is sorted, out , but we don't no 100% if the chassis is correct  we rely on the owner to help , if a complete set has to be made they will be sent for free ,

the shorter distance is where the small base will go ,, but with out standing next to you we rely on help from the owner ,

the clearance is grater in the one post because the smaller side is out, of being a equal lateral triangle, it makes no difference the other 2 will still work,it wont rattle it is held by the other 2   i have one guy that took all three bushes out , and he still says it is fine , but i designed them to work with the bush in  be it one two or 3 bushes, the base is  a T shape , if one is slightly smaller i.e 33.7 x 28.7 , and 33.5 and 28.7 or even 30x 28.5 ,  the other will more or less take any slack up , even if the base is made 4mm and 4 mm smaller , the weight of the deck will hold them ,

all the best pete
 

My questions is about one distance between pillars is out with 2mm.
There is a different questions when pillars has equal distances at at 293,0mm and chassis hole distances are 293,8 a difference with 0,8mm => the pillars are not in the centrum of the chassis holes => my new scratched Spider.

1. So if I understand you right Pete, if you have one distance that is out with 2mm, are you are thinking that two plates will keep their bushing and the one with smaller base diameter you will move it in to the right position and take the bushing out that?

2. If you make the plate 2mm smaller you can move it 1mm and take bushing out of the plate you will have an extra 1,25mm then you can compensate for 2mm.
Why do you need to make the plate 4mm smaller and the bushing hole 14mm? With this dimensions you can compensate for pillars that is out with 4mm, correct?

3. What happens if you have all plates the same full size and take two bushings out of the plate? That will you clearance with 1,25mm on each side of the pillars and that would clear 2mm out => each plate will take 1mm => total of 2mm.

4. If you make two bases 2mm smaller then you would be able to keep the bushing on all three plates?

5. How much smaller do you make the plate then the hole in the chassi e.g. 0,2mm, 0,3mm etc?

Here is a picture with my distances. Witch i the shorter pillar that you put the reduced plate size on?
For me it's you can choose between either Back and Right pillar.
The distances between the holes in the chassi is 293,8mm.

1858976050_Spiderdistances-Kopiax25roterad.jpg.3c8277b577eb7efec728d83a3d8ff063.jpg

Michell did not put the holes correct in the acrylic in march 2020 it's out with 2mm.

Edited by MrJones

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Super Wammer

the concept is simple as the pin is 2mm out you need one base 4 mm smaller the others stay the same, as long as we dont end up with a straight  base and not a T shape  which i can get a round, by a different method, which is my secret , 

you will need a base some 30 x 24 mm , with any other difference taken up by the bush ,  please contact charlie either to ask him to make the base or send them back for a refund, true point have your money , although it was a while ago they will be happy to refund it , even make a free base, for you ,

kind regards peter

Edited by gwernaffield

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Pete, what is the latest on the arm boards for the Gyro? I know you where trying various options. Is the Perspex one with the weights inserted the final design and is it available for a range of arms?

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20 hours ago, gwernaffield said:

the concept is simple as the pin is 2mm out you need one base 4 mm smaller the others stay the same, as long as we dont end up with a straight  base and not a T shape  which i can get a round, by a different method, which is my secret , 

you will need a base some 30 x 24 mm , with any other difference taken up by the bush ,  please contact charlie either to ask him to make the base or send them back for a refund, true point have your money , although it was a while ago they will be happy to refund it , even make a free base, for you ,

kind regards peter

I have two spiders as I mentioned before. Which one is the best to use?

The chassi hole distances are 293,8-293,8-293,8

Spider 1: 293,7-293,5-291,9; There will two fit perfect to chassi holes and one will be out with 1,8mm. I have seen two solutions for this from you:

1. Reduce plate size 2-2,5mm and take the bushing out. That person you helpt in #28/8
2. Reduce plate 4mm and keep bushing in. Mine is 34/28,5 will be 30/24,5 => 30mm plate to 28,5mm chassi hole => 0,75mm on each side will not be much plate space/material to take the weight from chassi.

Spider 2: 293,1-293,0-292,9; they are all symmetrical but each of them are out with 0,8mm. How do you solve this?

Which Spider should I choose and why?

Which one in my picture is ”The shortest pillar” that will have the small plate ?

I will talk to Charlie when I’m ordering and see what I will order from him and test.

Edited by MrJones

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Super Wammer

all the very best and with respect peter

Edited by gwernaffield

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Super Wammer

 they should be equal , it is a Michell error ,

Edited by gwernaffield

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 8 hours ago, gwernaffield said:

sorry i should rephrase this it should of been the shortest point , has the small base made , as for spiders it is upto you , the positioning of the suspension is up to Michell, as i  said it is a 2 way street , i am in wales you are were ever you are , i have sent the diagram to charlie, who has a vast more experience more than i have , but then i don't know of many audiophiles that have access to your advanced measuring system , ether you are in the business of trying to find out how they work , and to be honest i don't no why , or you are in competition, just trying to score points,

but and big but we never hide, parts are made and sent mainly for the post ,  or entirely  free, if i have any you can have them , 

so all the points scoring makes you look a fool , the problem started with Mitchell not making the it correct in the first place then surely the problem is theirs and not ours.  as i have said i don't have any of the money at all, if Michell have moved the holes deliberately they need to put them back the design for that is Pink triangles, which i think are made by true point and repaired by true point , it is unto True-point  if they wish to make the base or not , ether way you simply return them and a refund will be given ,

the pm is for private messaging ,

but you chose this route, and for the life of me the offer still stands  even after i think 4months?

i know of no bespoke company that would offer you this, and every one, i  offered all i can , true point are busy , i cannot get any stuff made, at all, due to the mill being broken , so all the parts have pilled up ready to go on the mills , but again i thank you for the diagram which is considerable help  i know of 2 different ways around this and both are secret , which you will never find out ,  it is not an advert for truepoint so i will not go on , they are in Birkenhead in Liverpool and i am near gwernaffield some 30+ miles away , so please contact them , they may or may not make a base for you,

as this has been done deliberately in the Michell design that i respect , the bases, are made to fit central to the chassis holes, it is not my fault that after 2 years the  Michell design has changed , if they don't work send them back , it is neither yours or  a fault of true-points ,as they are bespoke to the deck you have,

mountain out of a mole hill comes to mind, again i repeat that it they are made to fit the holes that should be in the same position in the acrylic , if they are not it is a Michell engineering problem that would bend the springs out of shape, 

out of the 200+ ,

we may of failed with yours , it is not a problem as you chose this route to contact me , just return them to charlie he will give you  your MONEY BACK , so 1 in 200 is not bad for the out come, and if he wants to make the base it is entirely  up to him, 

all the very best and with respect peter

5 hours ago, gwernaffield said:

so let me get this correct , the  chassis hole distances are 293,8-293,8-293,8  are all equal , the bases off the pylons just fit into the holes, yes

the acrylic is drilled out of alignment  and it is MY FAULT ????? they should be equal , it is a Michell error , Not mine, ! end

I 'm sorry, you have totally miss understood me. I'm sorry that you thought it was an accusation against you in some way and I'm trying copying and to produce pylons. I think you have mixed me up with someone else. I have only made totally 8 posts on hifiwigwam forum.
I don't understand why you can interpret what I wrote, that I would own an advanced measuring system? I don't have any advanced measuring system I just have digital caliper (0-300mm) that's why I give distances in tens of a millimeter.

I'm just an ordinary guy how likes hifi and just bought a Gyro SE in end of March. I have learned (thanks to you and others) of the Michell production consistency problems. I have also learned a lot thorough my own journey.
Normally I just want to learn as much as possible about a product before buy it so when I buy it I get the most out of it and hopefully learned a lot to.

I just want to give you information that even if pillars has the same distance is not for sure that they will be in the centre of the chassi hole. I just want to get your thoughts about the best solution for this for my two Spiders and which one I would choose.

As I wrote in last message, I was thinking of ordering Pylons from Charlie at TPA and I will discuss the different solutions with him. I don't own any pylons, why do you assume that I own pylons?

Best regards
Jonas

Edited by MrJones

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Super Wammer

all the best peter

Edited by gwernaffield
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On 23/08/2020 at 22:35, lostwin said:

I would qualify my comments and say that I don’t have direct experience of the SME on my deck The Morch is temporarily (but hopefully permanently) replacing a modified Tabriz.

The SME was supposedly the arm on which Michell have developed their models so there is a good chance of strong compatibility.

I have always loved the look of the Morch arms and there are good reports of synergy with Michell decks, albeit they are still something of a left field choice. They are beautifully crafted, almost Swiss watch like in their combination of delicacy and depth of craftsmanship.

For me the Gyro is a great all rounder deck - particularly with the replacement pylons - but it does err to a certain solidity of sound. What makes the Morch such a good partner I am finding - and where it may differ from the SME -  is a great upbeat quality, a lightness of touch that adds air and space that seems to glide above the solid platform that the Gyro provides.

Compared to the Roksan there is better drive, a nice fullness to the mids, hugely improved stereo imaging and a real dynamic joy to the way music flows from the speakers.

I think the SME with have a slightly different range of attributes but I am loving the Morch.

lostwin, thank you for your comment and sorry for reacting after such a long time. I'm just crazy busy at work and don't know where my head is :D. Your experience is valuable to me, since Morch is one of the arms I'm watching closely as my potential "endgame arm" on my gyro (which is my endgame TT).

Can you please just clarify what you mean by Gyro having a "certain solidity of sound"? I find gyro quite airy. And another thing - when describing Morch - how did it improve the imaging over Tabriz? More precise imaging? Better separation? Or something else? Did it affect the resolution as well?

Thanks and all the best,

Zvonimir

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1 hour ago, popol_vuh said:

lostwin, thank you for your comment and sorry for reacting after such a long time. I'm just crazy busy at work and don't know where my head is :D. Your experience is valuable to me, since Morch is one of the arms I'm watching closely as my potential "endgame arm" on my gyro (which is my endgame TT).

Can you please just clarify what you mean by Gyro having a "certain solidity of sound"? I find gyro quite airy. And another thing - when describing Morch - how did it improve the imaging over Tabriz? More precise imaging? Better separation? Or something else? Did it affect the resolution as well?

Thanks and all the best,

Zvonimir

No worries, I also know how consuming work can get at times.

When I was typing my original post I was slightly struggling to capture a phrase to capture the Gyro’s character, so not surprised you have pulled me up on it.

I think my line of reasoning is that whilst some TT’s can be very light on their feet and have an exuberant sound, the Gyro errs a little more towards a calmer more controlled presentation. With the strong caveat that I have never owned the SME arm, my expectation is that it would have a similar character. The Morch adds a bit of delicacy, a lightness of touch that adds air and space. 

The most obvious change compared to the Roksan was the opening up of the soundstage that sounded like much improved stereo imaging. With more listening though- and particularly on electronic music - there is a little less driving punch to the sound and I bet the SME would excel in that area.

After 3 weeks home demo I have bought the Morch, as on balance I still love what it brings. It was a s/h arm at a considerable cost saving to new and probably half what you would pay for a used SME V, so that was a factor too.

I think you will see from other Michell users on here that there are other options to consider too. The Audio Mods and Audio Note arm users report great results as well.
 

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Part 3 of my ongoing Gyro renovation project (undoing the Pedersen modifications, repainting the chassis)...

THIS is how a Gyro chassis looks like after all the paint has been sand-blasted off! (the chassis now weighs around 1390 grams, if anyone was wondering...)

I'm happy with the results, and all the Plastic Padding ("chemical metal") from the underside also came off, just like I was promised.

STILL, the alu-welded holes show some small "dents" in the surface (3'rd picture, and also the holes near the center on picture #1), and I will as a next step try to aluminium-solder a better surface finish, before repainting with the powder-coat method. Have never done this type of soldering before, so wish me luck...

2-6.jpeg

2-5.jpeg

2-4.jpeg

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Is there anyone in here that would have an interest in buying a used/second-hand PEDERSEN GYRO MODIFICATION that I have just dis-assembled from my own Gyro SE?

It was bought from Gert Pedersen in 2003 and was installed by myself, and I'm looking at a very reasonable price plus shipping expenses (from Sweden). Price new today from GP is €817.

This set is available WITHOUT the following parts: (1) the oven-dried sand [I personally never liked the dull brownish colour of this, now you can choose your own favourite colour!] (2) the Plastic Padding (i.e. "chemical metal") (3) the silicon-glue. Probably the o-rings need replacement also, although they look to be in good condition. All other parts in very good condition. The plastic sand container is in silver GREY color, but will be easily changed to BLACK by some spray-painting. 

Edited by Jan Andersson

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On ‎02‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 10:37, lostwin said:

I agree with Pete in that there are very similar products available at lower cost. I have seen comments suggesting not to overdo it eg do not completely fill the cavities underneath, otherwise you risk over deadening which supposedly has a detrimental effect. Technique is to roll the product into 1cm diameter ‘sausages’ and press around the inner edges of the cavities only.

Don’t expect a transformation, the impact (if any) is pretty small.

This is pretty much what l got lostwin.:)

(Used Blu-tac.):geek:

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Super Wammer
On 06/09/2020 at 00:07, lostwin said:

Pete, what is the latest on the arm boards for the Gyro? I know you where trying various options. Is the Perspex one with the weights inserted the final design and is it available for a range of arms?

Hi Lost win , you need to talk with TP , the one i am using is a thick 40mm piece off acrylic , for the SME with a small rubber damper , it seems to work very well , but we all have different music tastes , and i don't do reviews ,but then i would not have kept this one it i did not like it , 

TP can make an arm-board for you , out of anything , you want , they have the machines, how ever they seem to be snowed under with work and they are not cheap , i am not part of TP and never have been , it was away to get an engineering company to keep the pylons alive, , as i wanted an acrylic platter and several other parts made they kept the design by agreement,

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