Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Smokestack said:

with regard to hierarchy,  its  still sometimes difficult to convince folks that the bits you can't see are the most important bits

... and so having the hierarchy to bang on about gives it its value. I am absolutely convinced that what changed me from being an occasional Basik user to someone who puts an LP on the turntable as often as he sets up a streaming playlist was the decision, with the original incarnation of my LP12, to spend money on the bearing, power supply/speed control and sub-chassis, and economise by keeping my old arm and cartridge. I would not be surprised to learn that the deck we have been discussing in this thread is the product of precisely the converse line of thinking.

David

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nah,

It's just old and tired.     Probably not much thinking of any  kind involved in it's history  .

Fact  is,  there have been a lot of LP12s built,  over about 45 years now  !  ...and the condition of the older surviving examples is not going  to improve with bed rest .:)

Edited by Smokestack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/02/2020 at 14:24, Clavius said:

Old Skool Linn Dogma has the bearing at #1 in the hierarchy, but the bearing needs to be rigidly supported somehow to be useful...hmmm.... 

On 25/02/2020 at 15:44, akamatsu said:

I would take a Cirkus/Kore over a pre-Cirkus/Keel (would that even fit?). That's the hierarchy.

Indeed as would I.

It's not quite as simple as it appears. If you look at the pressed steel sub-chassis they are effectively a double skin. The early ones being spot welded, the later ones bonded. On the pre-Cirkus types, one of these skins is cut away around the bearing hosing (meaning that the bearing is supported by a single layer), whereas on the Cirkus sub-chassis this is not the case.

Additionally the pre-Cirkus sub-chassis are connected to the armboard by short (about half depth) wood-screws, whereas on the Cirkus the screws are (almost) the full depth of the armboard.

The reasoning behind this (apparently) was that the pre-Cirkus bearings were much 'noisier' than is the Cirkus, so needed to be somewhat decoupled from the armboard so as to prevent the noise being picked up by the tonearm. With the Cirkus this is not the case so the bearing is much more rigidly supported and there is a more rigid connection to the armboard. More so with the Kore, and (ultimately) a solid connection in the(one piece) Keel.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I want to thank everyone who stayed with this thread. I certainly learned a lot, and it was a real eye opener. This thing is a money pit through upgraditus tinted eyes for sure. What I wonder is will it still sound pretty good after what the group would recognise as a good service. I guess that means probaly springs and grometts and maybe bearings on the arm and probably the deck. It's doubtful the seller would let it go for the suggested $1000 here. Just a service and parts above would put it over his ask, presently he's asking NT$42000 (US$1393). This ask could actually be the price here. Western goods, especially hifi stuff, are much more expensive here due to shipping and duties. 

This money would probably be better spent on upgrading my scooter suspension to allow my coccyx to better hold my spine in it's groove. X-rays have shown me it's not tracking correctly, as has struggling to lift my thorax from the groove of my sofa at the listening position.

I still have a couple of questions. 

One, is any old plinth in need of replacement too? I think someone said maybe the mounting of the motor in an older plinth isn't as rigid as in newer (braced/reinforced?) ones?

Second, is there any way to ship one of these safely across the world? I've read of babying of them for car journeys of a few hours. Does every move require a service or good tweak?

Third, a naysayer came and said the design of an LP12 damages record grooves. Youse guys is too dang stiff in the upper lip sometimes. Were his accusations answered and debunked? I think someone replied saying something about one piece of material (keel) is the ideal, but I didn't grasp this. I think he was maybe saying that the azimuth can't be adjusted to minimise wear of the groove (aren't sylii oval to deal with this)? Given the LP12 has been around, and revered, for fifty years this has to be a bit of a troll, or at most charitable, doctrinaire arguement against the LP12. Does the LP12 sound great, but "destroy" records?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

By way of summary of what has gone before, let's anwer the key questions plainly and simply.

6 hours ago, Jail4CEOs2 said:

will it still sound pretty good after what the group would recognise as a good service?

Yes it will. It may not sound as "good" as a current LP12, and it will probably have characteristics of its own, but some people actually prefer those. The big question is whether the service will throw up issues that will add to the cost. We've listed those, so I needn't go over the ground again.

6 hours ago, Jail4CEOs2 said:

One, is any old plinth in need of replacement too?

Almost certainly not. Plinths, being made of wood, can be fettled and strengthened by a dealer who knows what he is doing; mine was. Issues with the dimensions can also be fixed, but they only tend to arise when titting more modern components.

6 hours ago, Jail4CEOs2 said:

is there any way to ship one of these safely across the world?

It has to be partially dismantled, and secured in the proper packaging; Linn can supply a set. It is worth emailing the Linn helpline to ask for fuller advice. On arrival in the new location, the ideal course is to get a dealer to set it up and test it. If the proper precautions are taken and the box is reasonably securely stowed in the shipping container or wherever, the LP12 is,  @ThomasOK assures us, pretty robust.

6 hours ago, Jail4CEOs2 said:

Third, a naysayer came .... Does the LP12 sound great, but "destroy" records?

Think about it. The LP12, using the same basic engineering design, has been in production for very nearly half a century. If that design had a tendency to damage records, would we all not have known about it long ago, and would the LP12 still be in production? The naysayer has already been given the correct factual/technical response. To summarise that response, the nay saying took particular facts out of context and blew them up out of all proportion. So whatever part of his anatomy said gentleman was talking through,  I doubt that his brain got much of a look in.

David

Edited by DavidHB
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Jail4CEOs2 said:

As below...

“I wonder is will it still sound pretty good after...a good service”

Assume everything on the deck is in working order then a basic service to include new springs, new grommets, new drive belt, new feet, new lid, new P clip, new locknuts, speed reset, suspension aligned, bearing oil, everything tightened, stylus cleaned, belt’s drive surfaces cleaned would return the deck to its original, or slightly better than, performance level.

Assume everything on the deck is not in working order then on top of above you need to factor in cartridge/stylus replacement, arm board replacement, Valhalla substitution, motor replacement.

“...maybe bearings on the arm...”

...are non-serviceable. Ittoks were very well made and tough, resilient arms but I have serviced a very small number with sticky bearings and/or defective tracking force dials. This arm could be fine. Or not.

The arm in your photos is obviously well-used. The absence of black paint on the slots where the cartridge bolts fit is evidence of repeated change of cartridge or change of position of cartridge. In an ideal world each change would require the arm to be taken off the deck. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasn’t.

You can also see a third screw/bolt has been added to the head shell. This and the fact the counterweight is pushed hard up to the bearing means the cartridge is light in weight, the arm won’t balance, and the owner has bodged a solution to provide more weight. In itself it is not the end of civilisation but hints at the deck’s historical usage.

“...is any old plinth in need of replacement too?”

Yes and no. It depends what you want. If you want originality or a retro vibe then stay with the same plinth. If not then a new plinth is demonstrably better. Corner bracing adds stability whereas non-braced plinths twist. Corner bracing with a new top plate gives you a hidden bolt in the motor corner which passes through the corner brace for a more secure fastening point.

Old plinths are toleranced differently in so much as a current metal baseboard does not always slot easily into the rebate. The only solution is to shave away some of the baseboard and decrease its size. It is possible to do that but it is an absolute chore.

“...is there any way to ship one of these safely across the world?”

The basic rules of transportation are...

Room to room - remove outer platter and mat.

House to house - remove outer platter and mat and tonearm counterweight Raise inner platter and insert support - paperback book or similar. This takes the weight off the suspension and stops the bearing tip chattering against the housing thrust plate.

Country to country - if by car then as house to house. By plane...if carried in the cabin then as above. If in the cargo hold then remove inner platter and pack separately. Remove tonearm and take as hand luggage. The temperature drop in the hold is severe and not worth risking the tonearm’s safety.

“Does every move require a service or good tweak?”

Not as a rule. Reassembly is simply the reverse procedure plus recalibrating the tonearm

“...a naysayer came and said the design of an LP12 damages record grooves...”

News to me and I started LP12-ing in 1978. The same poster was extolling the virtues of a Klimax spec LP12 a couple of years back.

“...azimuth can't be adjusted to minimise wear of the groove...”

You merely enjoy flexibility at the expense of rigidity. Hint...take rigidity.

“...aren't styli oval to deal with this...”

No

“Does the LP12 sound great, but "destroy" records?”

Yes before the comma, no after the comma.

Edited by Monkey Wrench
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 24/02/2020 at 16:43, DavidHB said:

Often, it's a gamble even if there is a warranty; risk is unavoidable. The real question is always whether the gamble in question is worth taking, and that will depend on circumstances. The OP's circumstances are not the same as those of us who have a selection of accessible Linn dealers to choose from. From what I can see, he would be better off taking the superior and less risky but significantly more expensive option, but I don't have all the facts.

David

I am confused. How there is risk involved when buying a product that comes with a warranty? I was under the impression that a warranty is supplied with a product to ensure that the product can be repaired or refunded when a query about it failing or malfunctioning is raised within a specified period of time.... I don't see where the risk is in that unless you use your turntable like a teenage DJ. Even if the dealer who supplies you the warranty shuts down, Linn look after you if you have a warranty on an LP12 nomatter where you are in the world - unless a distributor is involved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bruisedponpons said:

I am confused. How there is risk involved when buying a product that comes with a warranty? I was under the impression that a warranty is supplied with a product to ensure that the product can be repaired or refunded when a query about it failing or malfunctioning is raised within a specified period of time.... I don't see where the risk is in that unless you use your turntable like a teenage DJ. Even if the dealer who supplies you the warranty shuts down, Linn look after you if you have a warranty on an LP12 nomatter where you are in the world - unless a distributor is involved.

I probably shouldn't be speaking for DavidHB, but I believe the risk has to do with the LP12 being a precise, perfromance machine.  Because of this, while Linn will certainly back it up and make sure the parts are working, the only way you will realize the full potential of what an LP12 has to offer is to have it set up by someone who is really good at it.  This is not an easy thing for those who don't have someone like this nearby.  So while the warranty guarantees that an LP12 will function, it doesn't guarantee how well it will function.

By the way, I do think I should say something about the azimuth red herring.  It has already been mentioned that you can have azimuth adjustability or you can have rigidity and a solid connection of the headshell to the arm tube and the arm tube to the bearing assembly, but you can't have both.  But the whole azimuth question goes further.  Are you aligning the cartridge body, the contact patch of the diamond or the magnetic system?  Aligning by eye gets the body right but that doesn't mean the diamond or the magnetic system is aligned.  Using a Fozgometer may get the magnetic system aligned but that doesn't mean the diamond is mounted perfectly to the cantilever.  The only way you would have perfect alignment would be if the diamond is mounted perfectly to the cantilever and the magnetic system is in perfect alignment with the diamond/cantilever.  Does it really seem likely that a company that takes enough care to get those parts right can't get the top of the cartridge body to align with the rest?

But apparently I have to get up the courage to tell all those hundreds of records I bought in the 60s, 70s and on into the present that they have all been destroyed by my LP12.  Funny, they still sound really good.

As Monkey Wrench delineated above, the rest of that post is equally silly.  As I can confirm having taken top of the line Basis and mid range SMEs on trade towards LP12s after the customers heard the musical improvement the LP12 brought to their music.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, bruisedponpons said:

I am confused. How there is risk involved when buying a product that comes with a warranty? I was under the impression that a warranty is supplied with a product to ensure that the product can be repaired or refunded when a query about it failing or malfunctioning is raised within a specified period of time.... I

The point I was making is that a product can perform as specified but still turn out to be unsatisfactory in some respect; even if the vendor is prepared to offer a full refund, there will still be cost and hassle associated with the the whole process. More widely, nothing we do (or have done to us) in life is risk free. Typically, reducing one kind of risk increases another; in that sense risk is unavoidable. All we can do in those circumstances is to try to understand the risks, take them consciously, and live with the consequences. That is, as I understand it, precisely what @Jail4CEOs2 is trying to do. He has been contemplating a risk that I personally would not take, but his circumstances are not the same as mine, and the risk may be acceptable from his perspective.

And I fully agree with everything @ThomasOK says in the immediately preceding post.

David

Edited by DavidHB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought an early LP12 (ser no sticker missing) without an arm a year ago. It came with 2 armboards, 1 Linn and one rega, a second original PSU and switch.

Looking inside I saw that it had black springs so there was the first mod.

Since then I have bought a valhalla power supply for it and a new blank armboard.

I have recently bought a Hadcock GH228 export tonearm to fit and have various cartridges I could fit (Shure V15 III, Ortofon Quintet Bronze, AT OC9 III or Nagaoka MP11).

It has the old plinth with the groove and stay arm so I presume it is early. The dust cover is in fine condition as are the hinges.

Still on the back burner as I have a couple of Pre amps and a pair of standmount speakers in the production line atm.

I have always wanted an LP12 ever since I bought the Rock in 1986, just to see what all the fus was about. I also have a 1978 Planar 3 and a 1980 Luxman PD264.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: warranty clarity for future grazers of this thread. It is my understanding, and from my personal experience, Linn's warranty is only good in country of original purchase/sale, and thus not usable if outside of original jurisdiction of sale. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But does it apply to Great Britain post Brexit? :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think my 70's model is out of warranty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.