Ganders

Request for opinions after parcel loss.

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

I'm in a bit of a quandary regarding a lost parcel and don't know who is liable to bear the costs so I'd appreciate any advice please, and apologies Mods if this the wrong area of the forum for this question.

The circumstances are as follows, (witholding any personal details and courier name):

I sold an item, customer paid via bank transfer, knocked a bit off the price as agreed postage would be cheap.Customer requested I arrange delivery to local courier collection point rather than home, so I did this, parcel clearly labelled, photo taken, dropped it off at my local parcel drop-off shop, got tracking card.

2 days later, tracking shows parcel received and signed for at customers local collection point.All good it seems.However, customer tells me parcel not at his local co-op(collection point) when he tries to pick it up.Further investigation turns up that the co-op may have sent it out with the courier again, though no-one knows where to.A week later, courier declares parcel lost, I'm currently claiming compensation from them, takes 15 working days.

My question is, who should cover the cost of the item? My initial reaction was to say I'd pay back the customer in full myself, but on reflection this seems unfair on me; I sent the item(an amp) as per the customers request and instructions to send to collection point rather than their home, and if I make a full refund I'm down the £220 I received for the amp, the amp itself and the courier charge too through no fault of my own.Does this sound right, and is it just my hard luck, or would it be reasonable to think that as technically neither of us are to blame, we should both bear the cost? Does splitting whatever compensation the courier may give us(£50 standard if any most likely, as agreed on cheap post so no extra compensation paid for) sound out of order?

Please let me know what you think, I cannot decide myself currently so I'm thinking I'll go with the majority view if one is expressed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this was on ebay, then you'll have to refund in full. If on ebay, never send to anywhere other than registered address. The seller is always responsible for safe delivery of the item n the condition and as described. It matters not what else is in a listing, other arrangements, etc.

Personally, I would never send an item out without full insurance for loss or damage. If you have a specific agreement with the buyer and a clear understanding that the 'cheap' postage did not include full insurance against loss then your 50/50 proposal seems reasonably fair

Collection points are just a load of bad news. I've had several problems (couriers not collecting from point until 4 days later; items being reported as not at the collection point, when they were). If you go to some of these collection points you can see piles of boxes of stuff in plain view; easy for someone to nick or become mislaid, or whatever. I now don't use collection points

Having said the above, in general, given that you arranged dispatch/delivery and were aware of no insurance (and thus were aware of the risk yet still proceeded),  I would refund in full and keep any insurance recovered, chalking the episode up to experience.

If it was on here and the buyer definitely refused insurance and understood the risk, then I wouldn't refund.

Edited by simon g
Clarification
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ganders,

I have some considerable experience in this area gathered over a number of years when my wife and I were running a small business.

Whenever I sell such as hi-fi related items I simply won't ship without full insurance without a 'written' agreement from the buyer that they 'waive' their rights to any refund and such as eBay will support you as the seller if you can demonstrate the buyer took the risk.

Just before Xmas I sold a pair of Linn Isobarik crossovers to a buyer in France, to cut a long story short the package never made it. It was an eBay sale and I refunded the buyer inside a week and then had to wait 7 weeks for Parcelforce to actually pay me out. OK so nobody refunds you for all the time and grief involved in getting the money back but you know where you stand.

As it seems in this case that the buyer agreed to the cheap shipping then they have 'forfeited' any 'automatic' right to compensation. Personally I detail this to the buyer if they insist on cheap shipping. I wouldn't refund the buyer anything in this case.

I don't understand how certain hi-fi shops advertise things for shipping as being 'fully' insured for £15, it simply isn't possible even with a contract unless you happen to be the size of Amazon IMHO. Do you think to could ship say an £8000 pre-loved Linn Klimax DS/3 fully insured for £15? I don't think so.

Regards

Richard

Edited by linesrg
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel your pain. The only time I've ever run into hassle sending an item to someone was involving dropping it off at a collection point !
They are bad news and rely on the halfords/argos/cornershop/coop actually giving a flying !!!
I won't use them at all now.
Hope you get it sorted.

I would say if you have proof of delivery, signed drop off card, photo of parcel etc then the onus is on the Buyer to chase the courier company.
They wanted you to send it that way. You did, you fulfilled your end of the requested contract. Once delivered to the courier or their agent the package is no longer in your control.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fully insured sonehow seems like scam as one time a parcel was lost and they then wanted proof of value, didn't ask for proof of value before I paid extra for the insurance, as I see it, if I post a house brick and have it insured for £1000, if the courier delivers the parcel as promised, no problem, if they lose it they have had the insurance money and it's their responsibility to pay out, it shouldn't matter what is in the box. Provided the delivery address is genuine and it's signed for on delivery it's not the posters problem 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Wammer

The end point is the responsible party. You have proof you dropped it off, and subsequent tracking proof through to the courier drop-off/ customer collection point. The Co-op signed to say they have received it, therefore they are the ones who have lost/mislaid it, therefore they need to cough up. After all your contracted part of the chain was completed successfully, as you were only asked to get it delivered to the buyers preferred destination, which you did and can prove it via the delivery chain tracking. 

Edited by Lurch
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Wammer
2 hours ago, Ganders said:

Hi all,

I'm in a bit of a quandary regarding a lost parcel and don't know who is liable to bear the costs so I'd appreciate any advice please, and apologies Mods if this the wrong area of the forum for this question.

The circumstances are as follows, (witholding any personal details and courier name):

I sold an item, customer paid via bank transfer, knocked a bit off the price as agreed postage would be cheap.Customer requested I arrange delivery to local courier collection point rather than home, so I did this, parcel clearly labelled, photo taken, dropped it off at my local parcel drop-off shop, got tracking card.

2 days later, tracking shows parcel received and signed for at customers local collection point.All good it seems.However, customer tells me parcel not at his local co-op(collection point) when he tries to pick it up.Further investigation turns up that the co-op may have sent it out with the courier again, though no-one knows where to.A week later, courier declares parcel lost, I'm currently claiming compensation from them, takes 15 working days.

My question is, who should cover the cost of the item? My initial reaction was to say I'd pay back the customer in full myself, but on reflection this seems unfair on me; I sent the item(an amp) as per the customers request and instructions to send to collection point rather than their home, and if I make a full refund I'm down the £220 I received for the amp, the amp itself and the courier charge too through no fault of my own.Does this sound right, and is it just my hard luck, or would it be reasonable to think that as technically neither of us are to blame, we should both bear the cost? Does splitting whatever compensation the courier may give us(£50 standard if any most likely, as agreed on cheap post so no extra compensation paid for) sound out of order?

Please let me know what you think, I cannot decide myself currently so I'm thinking I'll go with the majority view if one is expressed.

Using the logic for credit card remote purchases - if the buyer does not receive the goods then the Merchant selling and posting the item is responsible for the loss.  The customer is refunded and the transaction is charged back to the Merchant. 

I would therefore suspect that the customer is not liable until the goods are received.   He did not receive them then you refund in full and make your claim on the courier company.  

Edited by uzzy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The seller is always responsible. It is contract law.

The buyer's contract is with you.

Your contract is with the courier.

You 'make good' to the buyer - if the item is lost then you refund their payment.

You claim for your loss from the courier - assuming your claim satisfies the condition of the contract.

Welcome to the world of retail...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Wammer

If the customer ‘requested’ the purchase was sent to a collection point of their choice, why refund? With having taken a photo, clearly labelled and tracked the parcel, seems to me you fulfilled your obligations. However, maybe I don’t know the Law. 

Edited by marko

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, linesrg said:

Ganders,

I have some considerable experience in this area gathered over a number of years when my wife and I were running a small business.

Whenever I sell such as hi-fi related items I simply won't ship without full insurance without a 'written' agreement from the buyer that they 'waive' their rights to any refund and such as eBay will support you as the seller if you can demonstrate the buyer took the risk.

Just before Xmas I sold a pair of Linn Isobarik crossovers to a buyer in France, to cut a long story short the package never made it. It was an eBay sale and I refunded the buyer inside a week and then had to wait 7 weeks for Parcelforce to actually pay me out. OK so nobody refunds you for all the time and grief involved in getting the money back but you know where you stand.

As it seems in this case that the buyer agreed to the cheap shipping then they have 'forfeited' any 'automatic' right to compensation. Personally I detail this to the buyer if they insist on cheap shipping. I wouldn't refund the buyer anything in this case.

I don't understand how certain hi-fi shops advertise things for shipping as being 'fully' insured for £15, it simply isn't possible even with a contract unless you happen to be the size of Amazon IMHO. Do you think to could ship say an £8000 pre-loved Linn Klimax DS/3 fully insured for £15? I don't think so.

Regards

Richard

If you have a business then you can take out Goods In Transit insurance, which covers all your shipped goods subject to a max value. Premium depends on circumstances, as ever. This is how most commercial sellers can include full insurance; they don't pay the extortiante additional premiums for individual shipments. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, linesrg said:

Ganders,

I have some considerable experience in this area gathered over a number of years when my wife and I were running a small business.

Whenever I sell such as hi-fi related items I simply won't ship without full insurance without a 'written' agreement from the buyer that they 'waive' their rights to any refund and such as eBay will support you as the seller if you can demonstrate the buyer took the risk.

Seriously RIchard?   eBay won't support sh1t even if you prove the buyer is lying.  

I've been done twice recently and it's getting worse as people get used to trying before buying.  They "buy" something then try it before returning as if the seller was Asos or Next

A 360 camera that was hired for zero cost for a weekend by someone who claimed it wasn't charging (who posted funnily enough a 360 video on his facebook) and a buyer who bought some new boots, decided he didn't like them and so scratched them to make them defective.

eBay give you zero protection as a seller.  

another RIchard

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, paulf-2007 said:

Fully insured sonehow seems like scam as one time a parcel was lost and they then wanted proof of value, didn't ask for proof of value before I paid extra for the insurance, as I see it, if I post a house brick and have it insured for £1000, if the courier delivers the parcel as promised, no problem, if they lose it they have had the insurance money and it's their responsibility to pay out, it shouldn't matter what is in the box. Provided the delivery address is genuine and it's signed for on delivery it's not the posters problem 

You must live in a expensive place..a thousand quid for a housebrick?  Thats too much..i can get you some for £200 each..how many do you need? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The sale of goods act is fairy simple until such time as the goods are delivered to the requested delivery address the sender is still the legal owner (and therefore responsible) This is true whether you are a business or private individual or if the goods are new or 2nd hand. As someone has suggested asking the buyer to waive their legal rights will cut no ice in a court of law.

In this particular case it seems it was delivered to the requested address, provided you can prove that (by signature) your safe. But it also seems the courier/co-op have admitted they lost it. It seems to me that in the interest of goodwill you give the guy his money back and wait for your refund from the courier. If they have admitted its lost they will pay it will just take a bit of time.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nearly bewildered said:

You must live in a expensive place..a thousand quid for a housebrick?  Thats too much..i can get you some for £200 each..how many do you need? 

Im sure you're not that dim but I'll explain any hoo, the point was it doesn't matter what is in the parcel or how much you say it's worth, they charge you the insurance based on the value 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, paulf-2007 said:

Im sure you're not that dim but I'll explain any hoo, the point was it doesn't matter what is in the parcel or how much you say it's worth, they charge you the insurance based on the value 

In that case it is not insurance you are buying but a contract of agreed financial compensation for non performance. A core principle of insurance is indemnification, you are put in the same position after the loss as immediately before - usually, but not always, with a cash settlement.

I suspect that for most couriers what you are buying is insurance coverage up to £1000, not a guaranteed payment of £1000.

Edited by lostwin
Correction

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.