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48 minutes ago, DebsE said:

I was talking to Peter Swain at Cymbiosis when notification of the Karousel came out (before all this Covid malarkey).

He and I agree that Tranquility lowers the noise floor on an otherwise stock Cirkus bearing by reducing bearing load. The impression formed was that Linn needed to address this, hence Karousel.

Once all the lockdown is over I will be intrigued to listen to a Karousel deck vs a Tranquility / Cirkus deck.

As my deck is fitted with Tranquillity/ Cirkus I couldn't agree more. I have also said to Peter that I will want to compare my deck directly with a same spec deck fitted with Karousel before deciding. 

Cheers Ady 

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1 hour ago, DavidHB said:

Unfortunately, I don't think that your leap of logic here is strong enough to carry you over the chasm of unknowing. Whatever the merits of Tranquility may be, I think it is unwise to assume that they were a major factor in the development of Karousel.

Ooh well done with your passive aggresive b/s.

And you know better?

Of course not.

So " your leap of logic here is strong enough to carry you over the chasm of unknowing".

Really?

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I think a Karousel deck vs a Tranquility / Cirkus deck is a very valid comparison, I've not heard either, but wouldn't it be ironic if they both changed the sound in a similar way !  

Amazes me (as an engineer) how some  who neither work in Linn or appear to be an engineer can speculate so much about design process and philosophy.  "Fact and Data" as one of my old bosses use to say. 

I don't see anything in that design that couldn't of been made years or decades ago on a CNC machining centre, perhaps it wasn't possible in side Linn until they recently bought more up to date machining capacity in house.  

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Posted (edited)

@ThomasOK  While it would seem fairly straight forward to fit the Karousel bearing ( thank you  DB1328 for posting that one page instruction brief ( which IMHO should be included in every package that has the Karosuel bearing kit) ...without the necessary instructions. I have experienced the following...and on more than one occasion:  Go to Linn dealer with new Linn parts ( or with upgrade request)...they have no clue how to fit due to no instructions in the packaging, they then reach out to their Linn rep..who also has no clue--so he needs to talk to HQ.( that's when the learning process begins...since there is no instructions included with the parts)Seems to me to be a little, err..'cumbersome'!!!  How are you 'instructed' on this stuff?

Edited by Daveyf

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Daveyf said:

@ThomasOK  While it would seem fairly straight forward to fit the Karousel bearing ( thank you  DB1328 for posting that one page instruction brief ( which IMHO should be included in every package that has the Karosuel bearing kit) ...without the necessary instructions. I have experienced the following...and on more than one occasion:  Go to Linn dealer with new Linn parts ( or with upgrade request)...they have no clue how to fit due to no instructions in the packaging, they then reach out to their Linn rep..who also has no clue--so he needs to talk to HQ.( that's when the learning process begins...since there is no instructions included with the parts)Seems to me to be a little, err..'cumbersome'!!!  How are you 'instructed' on this stuff?

All Linn dealers have secure access to instructions on how to install Linn upgrades and Linn components.

I have seen these instructions printed out by my Linn dealer on many occasions.

Linn dealers needs a password to access this information.

Edited by Paulssurround

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2 hours ago, Paulssurround said:

All Linn dealers have secure access to instructions on how to install Linn upgrades and Linn components.

I have seen these instructions printed out by my Linn dealer on many occasions.

Linn dealers needs a password to access this information.

I guess some of the ones that I have been to in the past must have lost their password to log in, lol.

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14 hours ago, ThomasOK said:

It certainly appears that is what he is saying.  At least I hope so because it is what I was agreeing to with my up vote.

And just in case it is not what he is saying, I will say it:  A Cirkus LP12 is more musical (as in tuneful) without a Tranquility, IME.  It also will indeed not fit the Karousel.

Indeed, that's what I'm saying. Using the Tranquility (and Kahn even worse so) appear to make some parts "clearer" and stand out more. It at the same time removes parts of the music and making it more flat. Hence, i does not "lower noise floor". In my opinion.

Having auditioned Majik LP12 with and without Karousel does fortunately not do anything like this. Just, better separation, more details - everything gets better. Adding a Lingo 4 to Majik LP12 improved it dramatically. This was through Selekt DSM (with to much use of SO in my opinion) and M140
Øyvind I

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@DebsE

I hope that you will accept my assurance that no aggression or disrespect were intended in the imagery I used, and I am sorry that you felt otherwise. In the interests of amity, it is probably best that I leave my response at that.

David

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Daveyf said:

I guess some of the ones that I have been to in the past must have lost their password to log in, lol.

Or forgot where they left their printouts lying around for us to pick up ... :) 

All the Linn dealers I have encountered (and others whom friends of mine use) seem to have no difficulty in getting hold of and using fitting instructions. I have known them be a bit reluctant to pass on said instructions to the customer, however.

David

Edited by DavidHB

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Some speculation about the timing of the Karousel release (given it is such a substantial improvement as it sounds); perhaps Linn chose to wait with its release until some time after the majority of their Klimax customers had upgraded to Katalyst. Making LP 12 vastly superior to (pre-Katalyst) Klimax level streaming (by releasing Karousel before Katalyst) would not be ideal compared to keeping the race tight.

(On the other hand, the luxury of freedom in product management by deliberately delaying a release may well not be an option for Linn financially so maybe its timing was more a matter of priority in development/production spendings which again may include an element of keeping klimax level streaming and the LP12 at a similar ”level”. )

But if this speculation would hold some truth, it could indicate that the rest of the (generally rumoured)  LP12 releases may not see light until some time after the next major update of the Klimax DS has been released? Whatever and whenever that might be :)

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9 hours ago, DavidHB said:

Or forgot where they left their printouts lying around for us to pick up ... :) 

All the Linn dealers I have encountered (and others whom friends of mine use) seem to have no difficulty in getting hold of and using fitting instructions. I have known them be a bit reluctant to pass on said instructions to the customer, however.

David

I guess that might depend on where your dealer is located. Unfortunately, not only are mine few and far between, but they are not well supported it would seem!

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11 hours ago, Daveyf said:

I guess that might depend on where your dealer is located.

Yes. You need to move closer to Ann Arbor :) .

11 hours ago, Daveyf said:

Unfortunately, not only are mine few and far between, but they are not well supported it would seem!

From what I see, It's not an easy thing, being a Linn dealer. It's a lot of cost, time and trouble to support the product line the way Linn want you to. It would not be surprising if some dealers balk at the demands put on them. That's the problem with products that are supposed to be sold by demonstration. But we wouldn't want Linn to turn into the sort of company that just makes boxes for vendors to shift mindlessly. The world already has more than enough of those companies.

David

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23 hours ago, Daveyf said:

I guess that might depend on where your dealer is located. Unfortunately, not only are mine few and far between, but they are not well supported it would seem!

Location is one thing, relationship is the other. And it's probably the more important one - like in the real life.

I recall when Linn started to use SMD components about a thousand years ago, and I asked my trusted dealer why the hack they would do this. He just called the right guy from the development team of Linn in Glasgow, made a short intro that I was his client and had a question, and handed his phone to me.

For the record: The explaination was very plausible, and only increased my respect for the development engineers at Linn. I still feel, that I owe that man a pint ;-)

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Here’s where the problem arises in my area...the closest Linn  LP 12 dealer is about 100 miles away. When we had a local dealer, he wasn’t able to sell the table as he couldn’t grasp the set up procedures, even though he did get the training. To that, the rep was constantly changing...one day one guy, the next someone else( according to my then local dealer). Now that Linn are apparently handling the distribution themselves, I have been told that the situation, as far as the local dealer is concerned, is no better. Remember, I am NOT in the UK, and this is where the knowledge line breaks down...at least in my particular area. Not saying this is true in other areas, or in the UK!

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19 hours ago, DavidHB said:

Yes. You need to move closer to Ann Arbor :) .

From what I see, It's not an easy thing, being a Linn dealer. It's a lot of cost, time and trouble to support the product line the way Linn want you to. It would not be surprising if some dealers balk at the demands put on them. That's the problem with products that are supposed to be sold by demonstration. But we wouldn't want Linn to turn into the sort of company that just makes boxes for vendors to shift mindlessly. The world already has more than enough of those companies.

David

I think you are correct in that assumption. Fifteen years ago when I lived in Canberra, the Linn dealer there dropped them as they wanted him to carry a minimum $100k of stock on top of the support expectations and he couldn't afford to have that on hand. No idea if they still have that sort of requirement (probably not as a lot seems to be made to order now and there is a different AU distributor now), but I think being a Linn dealer is a big expense....

I'm sure the mark-up/margin per unit is big, but the sales volumes probably don't make up for it in many cities outside the UK.

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