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Half a NM will make bollocks all difference to those of us as understand torqueing fasteners (!) and to ANYONE who read and understood my post about torque. But Hey, keep up with the snake oil  madness!

Edited by DebsE
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21 minutes ago, DebsE said:

Half a NM will make bollocks all difference to those of us as understand torqueing fasteners (!) and to ANYONE who read and understood my post about torque. But Hey, keep up with the snake oil  madness!

I was thinking along similar lines, One Nm is next to nil. A half of that is half way closer to nil. I wonder why Linn made the change.

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10 hours ago, DebsE said:

Half a NM will make bollocks all difference to those of us as understand torqueing fasteners (!) and to ANYONE who read and understood my post about torque. But Hey, keep up with the snake oil  madness!

No, no, no! It cannot be, because I cannot explain it technically :P Maybe have a listen first, before you refuse to accept that another torque value might change the sound?

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21 minutes ago, Tendaberry said:

Maybe have a listen first, before you refuse to accept that another torque value might change the sound?

In any case, aren't all these things relative? What is the standard of comparison that might lead @DebsE to the conclusion that the change is insignificant?

David

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15 hours ago, akamatsu said:

I was thinking along similar lines, One Nm is next to nil. A half of that is half way closer to nil. I wonder why Linn made the change.

My completely arbitrary guess is that not every installer may have an accurate torque wrench, so this is a safe middle ground.  Therefore your fractionally tight 4Nm is best left untouched.  But I’m not the engineer!

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On 26/08/2020 at 20:03, akamatsu said:
On 26/08/2020 at 19:40, DebsE said:

Half a NM will make bollocks all difference to those of us as understand torqueing fasteners (!) and to ANYONE who read and understood my post about torque. But Hey, keep up with the snake oil  madness!

I was thinking along similar lines, One Nm is next to nil. A half of that is half way closer to nil. I wonder why Linn made the change.

Somebody seems to have missed something as this shouldn't really need saying.  The idea that a half an Nm or 1Nm is insignificant makes sense when you are talking about building automotive engines where you are dealing with high torques, high vibration and high temperature variations.  It is not applicable when you are talking about a low stress but high-precision item like an LP12 where temperature variations and stressful mechanical motions are minimal.

Linn specs the recommended torque to fasten the Kandid to an Ekos SE as being .8 to .9Nm, the recommendation for the corner bolt by the motor is .4 to .6Nm.  Some of the torques involved are under .2Nm.  Still think the difference of .5Nm is negligible?  I there are no torques on an LP12 over 4Nm with the possible exception of the bottom cap of the Karousel.  The only ones over 3Nm are bearing assembly to sub-chassis attachment and the only additional one over 2Nm is the arm height screw on some of the arms (not any of the current arms).  So with most of the torques on an LP12 under 2Nm, a difference of 1Nm is at least 50% (over 100% in the case of a Kandid).  Even with a Karousel the difference between 4.0Nm and 3.5Nm is 12.5% as has been mentioned.  Hardly negligible and obviously important enough that Linn felt it should be changed on the dealer Installation Guide.  You might also try telling your dentist that .5Nm is doubly negligible when he goes to screw in the studs for your false teeth.  Small fasteners require small torques and often very precise ones, and torque drivers are the preferred way of getting this correct whether it is your dentist, a Telco company doing wiring, a computer repair facility fixing hard drives or an LP12 technician who wants to get the most musical perfromance from an LP12.

But you go ahead and stick your head in the sand and believe the woman who works on automobiles and thinks her knowledge is directly transferrable to an LP12.  Might as well go ahead and plug in your cables any way you want and use cheap 18 gauge wire from the hardware store while you are at it, as you can certainly find other engineers who tell you cables and cable direction are all snake oil as well.

Edited by ThomasOK
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18 minutes ago, ThomasOK said:

Somebody seems to have missed something as this shouldn't really need saying.  The idea that a half an Nm or 1Nm is insignificant makes sense when you are talking about building automotive engines where you are dealing with high torques, high vibration and high temperature variations.  It is not applicable when you are talking about a low stress but high-precision item like an LP12 where temperature variations and stressful mechanical motions are minimal.

Linn specs the recommended torque to fasten the Kandid to an Ekos SE as being .8 to .9Nm, the recommendation for the corner bolt by the motor is .4 to .6Nm.  Some of the torques involved are under .2Nm.  Still think the difference of .5Nm is negligible?  I there are no torques on an LP12 over 4Nm with the possible exception of the bottom cap of the Karousel.  The only ones over 3Nm are bearing assembly to sub-chassis attachment and the only additional one over 2Nm is the arm height screw on some of the arms (not any of the current arms).  So with most of the torques on an LP12 under 2Nm, a difference of 1Nm is at least 50% (over 100% in the case of a Kandid).  Even with a Karousel the difference between 4.0Nm and 3.5Nm is 12.5% as has been mentioned.  Hardly negligible and obviously important enough that Linn felt it should be changed on the dealer Installation Guide.  You might also try telling your dentist that .5Nm is doubly negligible when he goes to screw in the studs for your false teeth.  Small fasteners require small torques and often very precise ones, and torque drivers are the preferred way of getting this correct whether it is your dentist, a Telco company doing wiring, a computer repair facility fixing hard drives or an LP12 technician who wants to get the most musical perfromance from an LP12.

But you go ahead and stick your head in the sand and believe the guy who works on automobiles and thinks his knowledge is directly transferrable to an LP12.  Might as well go ahead and plug in your cables any way you want and use cheap 18 gauge wire from the hardware store while you are at it, as you can certainly find other engineers who tell you cables and cable direction are all snake oil as well.

What caused me to wonder about this is that the torque value of 3.5 or 4 Nm is very low for a fastener that size. I agree that with, for example, fasteners attaching a Kandid to the headshell the torque values are very low, but for tiny nuts and bolts. I think finding out why Linn made the change would indicate to me and my 4 Nm torqued Karousel if an adjustment is needed.

Edited by akamatsu
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43 minutes ago, ThomasOK said:

 But you go ahead and stick your head in the sand and believe the guy who works on automobiles and thinks his knowledge is directly transferrable to an LP12.  Might as well go ahead and plug in your cables any way you want and use cheap 18 gauge wire from the hardware store while you are at it, as you can certainly find other engineers who tell you cables and cable direction are all snake oil as well.

1. I am not a guy.

2. Show me the science and I might believe you.

3. I was at University (over 35 years ago) with the guy that discovered cable directionality in his MSc thesis (indeed I bought his Nytech 252 to partner with my first LP12), so you can wind your kneck in.

Edited by DebsE
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5 minutes ago, DebsE said:

3. I was at Univeristy (over 35 years ago) with the guy that discovered cable directionality in his MSc thesis (indeed I bought his Nytech 252 to partner with my first LP12), so you can wind your kneck in.

I have Nytech.here. By me too first with LP12.

Maybe science does not give everything a price or knowledge can be lost or there are things science cannot explain yet.

Edited by JPO2005
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There are three Linn dealers within a day trip from me, but I can't get to any of them due to the border closer. So, I will just have to live with what I have for now. In that context, 0.5 Nm will have to be negligible. Also, things are sounding very musical over here. :)

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21 minutes ago, DebsE said:

1. I am not a guy.

2. Show me the science and I might believe you.

3. I was at Univeristy (over 35 years ago) with the guy that discovered cable directionality in his MSc thesis (indeed I bought his Nytech 252 to partner with my first LP12), so you can wind your kneck in.

1) Nice! ( you have revealed this before but great re-reveal) 

2) Word

3) science 

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19 minutes ago, JPO2005 said:

I have Nytech.here. By me too first with LP12.

Maybe science does not give everything a price or knowledge can be lost or there are things science cannot explain yet.

Science is not so much about giving definative answers , its more about asking continual questions. So not everything can be explained by science but it will always ask the questions and not leave it to hokus pokus ( spelled with K's because we are on a Linn club thread) .

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Torque settings are usually meant to insure good and continued contact. If a torque setting is incorrect and the SQ is lost, it would surely mean that something is too loose, not too tight?? I also am not comprehending how Linn could recommend one setting initially and then lower it slightly, because would this not require that they have done extensive research as to what is the best setting for not only SQ but also for fit? This research must have been not only time consuming, but also subjective in regards to numerous issues---when we are talking about just SQ. Colour me Konfused ( See above post for spelling)... O.o

Edited by Daveyf
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I haven’t seen the bearing in the flesh but if the force added is so big that the three lands, going through the subchassis, meets the nut, you will end up with a bad connection. Could that be the reason to lower the torque?

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