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I heard that the torque adjustment was due to an over zealous installer. But 4 Nm is so small, one would really have miss the mark in order to do any damage.

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4 hours ago, DebsE said:

1. I am not a guy.

2. Show me the science and I might believe you.

3. I was at University (over 35 years ago) with the guy that discovered cable directionality in his MSc thesis (indeed I bought his Nytech 252 to partner with my first LP12), so you can wind your kneck in.

1.  Sorry, I did not look at your personal info, no slight intended.

2.  There is much science doesn't understand and it is constantly in search of new information.  600 years ago the science would have told you that the sun revolved around the earth.  I go with what my ears tell me whether or not science tells me something should work.

3.  I was first told of cable directionality some 40 years ago by Julian Vereker before anyone knew how it worked.  It was still audibly obvious that there was a musical difference before anybody was able to show why.

akamatsu, there is no reason to believe that 4Nm is going to damage your Karousel or Keel.  The difference is not that much as to cause any deformation.  Also, yes, it already sounds quite good at 4.0Nm (although some have not been fully convinced).  However, on a Kore 3.4Nm (with my specific driver) is easily more in tune, especially in the bass, than 4.0 -2 notches, 3.8 +1 notch, 3.6 and a couple of notches above and below 3.4.  I still have to try the new torque range on the Keel before I can say whether the same torque is best.

This is not life or death, your turntable will still hum along fine and will not be damaged.  But when you are able you will find it is more musical if that torque can be optimized, which has to be done by ear as torque drivers differ.

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26 minutes ago, ThomasOK said:

akamatsu, there is no reason to believe that 4Nm is going to damage your Karousel or Keel.  The difference is not that much as to cause any deformation.  Also, yes, it already sounds quite good at 4.0Nm (although some have not been fully convinced).  However, on a Kore 3.4Nm (with my specific driver) is easily more in tune, especially in the bass, than 4.0 -2 notches, 3.8 +1 notch, 3.6 and a couple of notches above and below 3.4.  I still have to try the new torque range on the Keel before I can say whether the same torque is best.

This is not life or death, your turntable will still hum along fine and will not be damaged.  But when you are able you will find it is more musical if that torque can be optimized, which has to be done by ear as torque drivers differ.

4 Nm is a loooong way from damage range. If there is an optimum torque value, it certainly would be nice to have my LP12 tuned to include it, and anything else that would help. Ron Paternoster at Definitive Audio in Seattle has been my main fettler since he did his amazing work in January. The first thing he did when Karousel came out was to order a $300 torque wrench with which to do the installations. Then there are variances between torque wrenches. The fettler would have to determine the most musical torque values for their particular tool. I imagine that it may take a few months for all this to be sorted out. But thanks to expert fettlers such as yourself, Ron, and many a select few others, we benefit from more musical music, and peace of mind that we are getting the most out of our rather expensive kit.

Edited by akamatsu
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Edited by ThomasOK
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There are so many variables in the set up of our systems that IF a 0.5nm torque difference on the new bearing has that much of a difference in the SQ then I believe there also must be numerous other issues that could also be addressed in our systems. Question one has to maybe ask oneself is when is enough, enough? 

Cannot believe I just wrote that, as a life long a'phile, maybe I need to trade in my a'phile club card??9_9

Edited by Daveyf
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I don’t know enough about the details of the engineering of the Karousel bearing, or possess the required skillz in tribology for that matter,  to understand if the bearing clamp down torque will somehow provide some bearing preload and so affect friction.

That said a difference of 0,5Nm in input torque should easily be nulled by thread friction.

Quoted  below you’ll find an excerpt from a more learned source than yours truly:

https://www.pcb.com/Contentstore/mktgcontent/WhitePapers/WPL_21_Fund_Torque-Tension.pdf


“Input torque can be thought of as the amount of work (or energy) applied to a threaded fastener causing the bolt to turn an “x” amount of degrees and in turn stretching the bolt producing a clamp load. The input torque is divided into two factors: thread torque and underhead torque.


Thread Torque: The reaction torque to the input torque, or the amount of the torque it takes to keep the nut from turning when an input torque is applied to the
bolt head.
Underhead Torque: The amount of the input torque it takes to overcome friction in the 

The thread torque is a combination of two factors: thread friction torque, pitch torque.


Thread Friction Torque: The frictional portion of the thread torque describing the amount of torque it takes to overcome the friction in the engaged threads.
Pitch Torque: The geometrical factor of the thread torque describing the amount of torque that is used to stretch the bolt.

The thread friction torque is then calculated by subtracting the pitch torque from the thread torque“

Please also keep in mind that according to the hifi hierarchy hypothesis a change in the performance of the bearing will always > than anything downstream in the system, i.e. pretty much everything.

Edited by Clavius
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  • Moderator

The Mods have had a complaint about some of the language used in this thread. A reminder to all - if you feel unable to contribute to the forum in a civil manner, then either apply some self-restraint or the Mods will apply some restraint for you. Repeat offenders will find that the restraint is permanent.

Remember - it's only a HiFi...

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1 hour ago, Tony_J said:

Remember - it's only a HiFi...

Quite so. And, according to Gilad Tiefenbrun, nobody needs a Hi-Fi.

David

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7 hours ago, Daveyf said:

There are so many variables in the set up of our systems that IF a 0.5nm torque difference on the new bearing has that much of a difference in the SQ then I believe there also must be numerous other issues that could also be addressed in our systems. Question one has to maybe ask oneself is when is enough, enough? 

Cannot believe I just wrote that, as a life long a'phile, maybe I need to trade in my a'phile club card??9_9

It just seems like a bit of common sense to me, and of course, as often pointed out, it isn’t that common!  

Debating whether fractionally tighter bolts alter the sound is where I fear a certain Linn mythology takes over, and seems to contradict the engineering emphasis that prevails in the design.  Given the role of the main bearing, I struggle to see how anything between tight enough and stripped can alter the sound - though there’s an inference that maybe other parts of the ‘system’ might be showing flaws with the Karousel?

I do respect the views of seasoned dealers, who I’m sure attain fine-tuned sensitivities.  Many decades ago in a part-time Hifi store job I think I acquired some of the same. Familiarity is a great thing.  But we can never overlook a natural expectation bias. 

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But the mystery is still with us. If the former torque doesn't hurt the threads or the subchassis, or give less good sound, why does Linn revise the instruction?

They should know it will most definitely create some frustration by the customers who already has got the Karousel installed............

Not me, when I get a Karousel it will be torqued after the lastest revision. But who knows, maybe they will change it again in the future.......sleepless nights.

Edited by HBerg
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1 hour ago, HBerg said:

...sleepless nights.

I’m sure you won’t get any. I’ve heard that US amplifiers make everything sound fabulous, so you’ll be fine! ;-)

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3 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

The crux with a (sensitive) LP12 is that almost any modification somehow changes the sound of a track a bit. However whether that track now actually sounds better than before is a different story, whether most or all tracks now sound better is a completely different story...

That's the semi-problem with the ownership of an LP12 - everything is scrutinized and over analyzed. I just want to listen to records and be happy.  I hate being told that my enjoyment will be better if I do all of these things.  What is the right side of the felt mat to use?  The proper seating of the outer platter vs. inner platter (1mm makes a huge difference, right?). Is the surface that it is on low mass enough? A huge debate over torque settings for the installation of the Karousel or  Kore or Keel or Radikal or Urika! Should I get a new Krystal to replace my 30 yr. old Troika or will I turn to dust if I do that before upgrading the latest bearing?  It can get a little "kaotic" to contemplate all the variables and all the Linn experts giving advice.  Imagine owning an amp and years later the company telling you that for even more enjoyment swap out transformers. Or major capacitors. Or leave your amp there for a month while they change every bit of internal wiring.  Or let's swap out the support feet.  Maybe even upgrade the LEDs to more efficient ones!    Linnies have too much time on their hands.  I spend more time trying to understand what Beethoven and Mozart are telling me and less time wondering if the dustcover is somehow degrading the sound.

Edited by mskaye
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11 hours ago, Daveyf said:

There are so many variables in the set up of our systems that IF a 0.5nm torque difference on the new bearing has that much of a difference in the SQ then I believe there also must be numerous other issues that could also be addressed in our systems. Question one has to maybe ask oneself is when is enough, enough? 

Cannot believe I just wrote that, as a life long a'phile, maybe I need to trade in my a'phile club card??9_9

"You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes"  Do you want to take the red pill?  

I will admit to being the kind of person who does experiment with numerous issues that can improve the musicality of the system, as is Fredrik Lejonklou.  How far does it go?  Example one: Fredrik found that every single cable sounds slightly different.  I have about 8 pair of Linn Silvers, first generation.  I listened to every single cable separately and then marked them as pair 1, pair 2, pair 3, etc.  Pair 1 connects my SINGularity phono stages to my Sagatun Mono preamps, pair 2 connects the preamps to the Tundra Mono power amps (others would use them for the second source but my phono chain is more important to me), pair 3 currently connects to my Kremlin, etc.

Example two: If you thought precision torques questionable on an LP12 you will surely think I am completely nuts when I tell you that they make musical differences on electronics and speakers.  All Lejonklou electronics are built with specific torques for all fasteners except those that hold the feet on the amplifiers (as those are too low to measure).  Many of the products have a label on the inside listing the proper settings in case the unit has to be serviced.  Yes, the differences are audible.

So lets give a real world example of how extreme it can get.  My system at home consists of the best Klimax LP12 I have heard which uses a Woodsong movingui plinth and otherwise all Linn parts.  The arm cable is what is now called the Akito arm cable (basically the original T.Kable but with the new Linn DIN plug) on which I have put the original Linn Silver RCAs as I find this cable more musical than the current T.Kable.  This sits on my NOKTable stand which is a slight modernization of the Archidee stand with better hadrware and  bit better construction.  The LP12 plinth is 94mm from the back wall as this is where it sounds best.  My equipment is on three Harmoni racks with CNC machined aluminum Mimer top shelves and solid Sitka spruce lower double Tor shelves (18mm shelf then two fender washers then a 6mm shelf).  The bottom shelves are basically an inverted Tor with the thin shelf on top onto which you do not place any component but instead place a small piece of 1" thick Dacron polyester about 3" x 6" (I don't remember the exact size but an extra half inch of length is worse).  These racks are all four shelves on which you can only use three because that is how they sound the best.  They can go five high and you can add another 18mm above the inverted Tor on the bottom but neither setup is quite as good.  The top is generally for sources but with my concentration on LP sound I have the KRadikal on one Mimer and the SINGularity pair on another.  Second shelves are the mono preamps, third shelves are the power amps - always follow the hierarchy.  The third rack houses my Kremlin and my streamer/DAC.  It has occasionally held a CD player but currently doesn't.  These racks are placed 200mm from the back wall as this is where they are most musical.  The power amps are connected to a pair of completely rebuilt Quad ESL (commonly called 57s) originally built in 1978.  Panels were rebuilt by Sheldon Stokes, one of the best in North America.  I rebuilt the crossovers, since the parts were out of spec, with new turret boards and Vishay resistors and capacitors marched to tolerances of a few hundredths of a percent.  (I fully admit I didn't test to see if that was audible but the values were so close on them anyway I figured, why not?)  The resistors, capacitors and internal wiring were all tested for most musical direction and oriented that way (yes it does matter on individual parts, including fuses).  The power supplies were to speck and didn't need any work.  I soldered the connections using Lejonklou solder (he listened to 40 different ones to find the most musical) and at 677 degrees Fahrenheit (yes the temperature the solder connection is made at makes a difference).  These are connected to the Tundra Monos using Linn K400 speaker cable split in half, trimmed to 2.48 meters length soldered at 677F with Lejonklou solder to original style Linn Knekt banana plugs.  They are mounted on custom welded OFIL speaker stands - similar in basic idea to SARA stands but with a lot of experimenting as to best sounding metals, etc. (if I recall correctly at least 3 different steels are used) that have the Quads at a height of 10".  The fasteners that hold the stands together are fastened at around 20Nm (I don't recall the exact setting).  The Quads are placed 35" from the back wall on the inside corners and 38.5" on the outside corners with them being 80cm apart at the inside frame edges.  Power cables are all the latest version Lejonklou AC cables (by Volex) which are the first to beat my old Linn Longwell cables for musicality, except on the Quads where the AC cables have no sonic effect so I use a longer Volex cable for convenience.  All stands have spikes fitted onto Skeets as I have a hardwood floor.  

So, yes, many will consider me certifiable.  I just did a full setup on a late 80s LP12 two days ago for a customer who drove 3.5 hours to get here.  It needed a Valhalla rebuild and a new cartridge (he went with a Dynavector DV-20X2h).  Also put on a new falt mat, new cartridge tags, springs and grommets, a Trampolin 2 and a few misc. small parts.  He watched me most of the time and told me a couple of times I was insane.  But he said he was glad I was insane as it made his LP12 sound so much better than he had ever heard it before.  He is saving up to go with a Karousel, Kore and new PS/motor next year.

I featured that same system listed above, minus the tuner, DAC and one rack, with a 61 year old stock pair of Quad ESL in the Lejonklou/Nokturne Audio room at 2019 Axpona Hi-Fi show.  We received many comments to the effect that it was the most musical at the show and one of the editors of Stereophile, John Atkinson, said it was a highlight of the show.  It also lead to three new dealers coming on board for Lejonklou over the next few months.  In 2016 a similar system at RMAF, but with a $1766 pair of JBL professional cinema speakers, was awarded Best Sound of Show by Rafe Arnott of Part-TIme Audiophile.  So it appears this level of attention to detail (the systems were setup as close as possible to the setup at home) does pay off in terms of listener satisfaction.

Would I expect your average music listener to take things to the levels Fredrik or I do?  Certainly not.  But if you want anyone to be OCD about squeezing the most out of a music reproduction system, it can't hurt if that person sets up your LP12 or designs and builds your electronics - at least my customers feel that way.

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@ThomasOK that deserves a Wow vote, but there isn’t one. Wow, though!

Now, take a lie down and enjoy some music. ;-)

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