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On 03/09/2020 at 21:24, Fitter Stoke said:

I'm left with even more pride for great British engineering and the wonderful things it does for music

I suppose, with Karousel, that should properly be, "... and the wonderful way it doesn't do things to the music." :)

Gordon Inch's take on that (which I have heard before) is that the object is to reproduce precisely what was heard in the studio when the recording was made - the implication being, of course, that the reproducing system should have no sound of its own.

@Fitter Stoke's pride was obviously shared by Gordon. He is, by nature, an enthusiast. but he seemed particularly upbeat when he was explaining that Karousel is the product of good, old fashioned mechanical engineering (albeit with new materials and improved production methods), rather than the electronics and software that has dominated Linn's innovation in recent years. He implied that Karousel was the result of s "bottom up" initiative by the LP12 development team, and said that everyone at Linn has been surprised at the degree of improvement it has made. He repeated the now familiar theme that Karousel should be the first improvement made to any LP12.

Gordon also specifically said that, if the owner of a pre-Karousel Majik deck were to fit the Karousel and a Lingo 4, that would provide them with a level of performance which would satisfy them for a long time. And, on a non-Karousel point, he said that if, for roughly the same money, he had the choice between a second hand Ittok and a new Akito, he would choose the latter, mainly because it would represent a known build standard in which he could have confidence.

David

Edited by DavidHB
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14 hours ago, Fitter Stoke said:

projected new developments for the LP12

As ever, it will be interesting to speculate on what these might be and then find we’re all wrong, anyway.

There’s always the possibility of an Ekos SE Plus, given what they’ve achieved with machining the Karousel.

if it’s the turntable itself, many have long speculated on a new top plate.

My favoured guess is a new sprung foot for the Trampoline/Urika. I know it does the job, but that item has remained unchanged for getting on 30 years and its appearance doesn’t befit a deck of the Klimax’s price bracket.

’troll

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5 hours ago, Moomintroll said:

As ever, it will be interesting to speculate on what these might be and then find we’re all wrong, anyway.

I think, where the LP12 is concerned, you are right to mention the mechanical engineering aspect of things, after the undoubted success of Karousel.

5 hours ago, Moomintroll said:

There’s always the possibility of an Ekos SE Plus, given what they’ve achieved with machining the Karousel.

The more urgent need is suely either to replace or find a way of manufacturing the Majik arm.

5 hours ago, Moomintroll said:

if it’s the turntable itself, many have long speculated on a new top plate.

I find it difficult to envisage what re-engineering the top plate could achieve. If I understood correctly what Gordon said in relation to the plinth, the whole of the unsprung mass of the LP12 needs to be as acoustically inert as possible. I would have thought that the top plate, held in compression as it is, already does that pretty well.

5 hours ago, Moomintroll said:

My favoured guess is a new sprung foot for the Trampoline/Urika. I know it does the job, but that item has remained unchanged for getting on 30 years and its appearance doesn’t befit a deck of the Klimax’s price bracket.

I can hardly see mine. What is it that offends your sensibilities?

David

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An Ekos SE plus would be a good idea. Hopefully this time with some ability to adjust azimuth and an accurate VTF. 

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On 01/09/2020 at 11:27, Harbie said:

I hope you do the right choice and be lucky enough to source a Kore 

A ,majik subchassis is a huge development; ie. essentially a Kore bar the aluminium armboard (retrofittable, I was told)I wouldn't ever fit a Karousel below that standard.

Good luck!

Thanks Harbie. 
I think I’m going to order a new Kore to go with my Karousel. 
Apart from the Lingo 1, it is a standard 1990 LP12, although I was fortunate enough to have fitted a Ekos 1 on it in the early days. 
It seems like I still have to wait a few weeks yet but once it’s all done I’m going to hear a massive change 😀

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1 hour ago, AndyS said:

I think I’m going to order a new Kore to go with my Karousel. 

The Kore is probably the best subchassis in "bang for buck" terms, and it can be bought second hand, because people trade up to the Keel. It might be worth asking around along those lines. Going North and East out of Bournemouth, there are a number of dealers within reach. Please PM me if you'd like an introduction to mine; he travels to me on the Isle of Wight for on site installations, which saves all the faff of carting an LP12 around the country.

That said, if in any way your budget can run to a Lingo 4, I think you would find that is even more of an upgrade than the Kore. I recognise that, if you have a pre-Cirkus subchassis, you will need a Majik or Kore subchassis in any case to fit the Karousel. But the combination of Karousel and Lingo 4 transforms an older Majik level deck into something that most owners will be happy with for a long time. At this point, you'll look at my Wigwam information and say that I'm a fine one to talk :). But the fact is that, wonderful as the Radikal and Keel are to own, they do not justify their substantial cost as well as the Lingo 4 and Kore, both of which I have owned in the past.

David

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6 hours ago, Daveyf said:

An Ekos SE plus would be a good idea.

So it would. And, following Linn''s experience with the Karousel, I'm sure that they'd want to apply similar ideas (new materials, increased 'meat' where it is useful, finer manufacturing tolerances, base up rethinking of the design) to the development of an Ekos SE/2 (or whatever Linn decide to kall it). As the same time, though it is of less immediate interest to you and me both, the demise of Jelco has left a big hole in Linn's product lineup where the Majik tonearm should be. No doubt you agree that that hole needs to be filled in first.

6 hours ago, Daveyf said:

Hopefully this time with some ability to adjust azimuth and an accurate VTF.

On VTF, I agree with you. That is a problem that better manufacturing  should cure. I know that the use of a separate set of stylus scales gets round the problem, but the issue is an irritant we can do without. As regards azimuth, I personally would be very reluctant to trade any loss of rigidity in the headshell/tonearm fixing  for an azimuth adjustment capability.

David

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6 hours ago, DavidHB said:

So it would. And, following Linn''s experience with the Karousel, I'm sure that they'd want to apply similar ideas (new materials, increased 'meat' where it is useful, finer manufacturing tolerances, base up rethinking of the design) to the development of an Ekos SE/2 (or whatever Linn decide to kall it). As the same time, though it is of less immediate interest to you and me both, the demise of Jelco has left a big hole in Linn's product lineup where the Majik tonearm should be. No doubt you agree that that hole needs to be filled in first.

On VTF, I agree with you. That is a problem that better manufacturing  should cure. I know that the use of a separate set of stylus scales gets round the problem, but the issue is an irritant we can do without. As regards azimuth, I personally would be very reluctant to trade any loss of rigidity in the headshell/tonearm fixing  for an azimuth adjustment capability.

David

There seems to be no reason why Linn couldn't be working on a new Ekos-SE (2) AND a replacement for the Majik tonearm at the same time. Linn have always sub contracted out their entry level tonearm and I would see no reason why they should change that practice ( irrespective of the fact the Jelco are no more). 

As to Azimuth, this is a fundamental requirement for the most accurate cartridge set up.( which i think you may know if you have ever tried to set up a cartridge yourself) There have been several excellent tonearms with this adjustment that are one piece head shell designs...and with excellent rigidity. Google the superb Wheaton TriPlanar arm, as an example of what IMO is an arm that has multiple abilities for cartridge set-up exactitude 

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13 minutes ago, Daveyf said:

There seems to be no reason why Linn couldn't be working on a new Ekos-SE (2) AND a replacement for the Majik tonearm at the same time. Linn have always sub contracted out their entry level tonearm and I would see no reason why they should change that practice ( irrespective of the fact the Jelco are no more). 

Concurrent working is possible if the staff are available.Linn has been restarting operations progressively (sensible because of the need to adapt working practices and the fact that there are still major supplier issues), and still has staff on furlough, presumably until the conclusion of the scheme next month. Within that general scenario, the Majik arm has to have priority, because Linn will be running out of Jelco made arms by now. What the replacement arm will look like is anyone's guess. I'm not sure that there are all that many third party manufacturers who make arms in the Majik price range. There's Pro-ject of course, but Linn have been there and done that. Or they could manufacture to (essentially) the Jelco design; Linn have done that too in the past.

26 minutes ago, Daveyf said:

As to Azimuth, this is a fundamental requirement for the most accurate cartridge set up.( which i think you may know if you have ever tried to set up a cartridge yourself) There have been several excellent tonearms with this adjustment that are one piece head shell designs..

I didn't say that I was opposed to Azimuth adjustment as such; I have no view on that. I was saying that I would not give up what I believe is a significant virtue of the Ekos in order to have the Azimuth adjustment (on which, IIRC, yours is not the only view). That remains my position.

David

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On 05/09/2020 at 12:29, DavidHB said:

The Kore is probably the best subchassis in "bang for buck" terms, and it can be bought second hand, because people trade up to the Keel. It might be worth asking around along those lines. Going North and East out of Bournemouth, there are a number of dealers within reach. Please PM me if you'd like an introduction to mine; he travels to me on the Isle of Wight for on site installations, which saves all the faff of carting an LP12 around the country.

That said, if in any way your budget can run to a Lingo 4, I think you would find that is even more of an upgrade than the Kore. I recognise that, if you have a pre-Cirkus subchassis, you will need a Majik or Kore subchassis in any case to fit the Karousel. But the combination of Karousel and Lingo 4 transforms an older Majik level deck into something that most owners will be happy with for a long time. At this point, you'll look at my Wigwam information and say that I'm a fine one to talk :). But the fact is that, wonderful as the Radikal and Keel are to own, they do not justify their substantial cost as well as the Lingo 4 and Kore, both of which I have owned in the past.

David

Thanks David,

Ideally I would like to have a Lingo 4 fitted at the same time as my Karousel, but I really think my LP12 deserves a better sub-chassis to go with the Karousel and I don't want to stretch to buying all three in one go. At least, if I buy a Kore, I won't need to upgrade that again for a very long time.

I am hoping to order a Lingo 4 next year, it gives me something else to look forward to :)

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46 minutes ago, AndyS said:

Thanks David,

Ideally I would like to have a Lingo 4 fitted at the same time as my Karousel, but I really think my LP12 deserves a better sub-chassis to go with the Karousel and I don't want to stretch to buying all three in one go. At least, if I buy a Kore, I won't need to upgrade that again for a very long time.

I am hoping to order a Lingo 4 next year, it gives me something else to look forward to :)

All very sensible and understandable. I'd suggest that you share your plans with your dealer. Second hand Lingo 4s are sometimes available following upgrades to Radikal. It's always best to get a part like that through the dealer, so you know that it's in decent nick and he's willing to fit it. 

David 

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1 hour ago, AndyS said:

 At least, if I buy a Kore, I won't need to upgrade that again for a very long time.

Yes. I had my Kore for 2.5 years before upgrading to the Keel.:D

But seriously folks, I think that all LP12 owners should aspire to Klimax level. The source is where it's at. This being said, the Kore, along with the Krystal, are the two components that are rather near their more expensive counterparts in performance, and can be left in service for a long time. Especially the Kore.

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Speaking of aspiring to a higher level, has anyone traded in their Kandid and replaced it with the likes of an Etna Lambda or an Atlas Lambda?

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56 minutes ago, Daveyf said:

Speaking of aspiring to a higher level, has anyone traded in their Kandid and replaced it with the likes of an Etna Lambda or an Atlas Lambda?

 Especially the Lyra Etna, with its aspirational combo of just enough warmth and detail, would be a divine match with a top notch Linn LP 12. 

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