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Johnny Darko

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Apart from his peevishness, I find the jump-cuts off-putting. I know he's an independent producer with limited resources - but the number in the first few minutes suggests that it's a deliberate stylistic choice - self-consciously YouTube-y and a bit ridiculous.

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29 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

My take on it (and other people's such as Rob Watts) is that there is often high frequency analogue noise overlaid on top of the digital signal. Typically this is in the RF range. This does not prevent the accurate transfer of the digital signal without error but this noise can get into the DAC analogue circuits where it can cause intermodulation distortion.

Digital signals are also RF.

2 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

Rob Watts has written extensively about all this.

I'd take what he writes with a bucket of salt. Some of his claims are pretty outlandish, like his supposed ability to "easily" hear noise modulation at -300 dB.

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Super Wammer
5 hours ago, mansr said:

Digital signals are also RF.

I'd take what he writes with a bucket of salt. Some of his claims are pretty outlandish, like his supposed ability to "easily" hear noise modulation at -300 dB.

Sure, but digital signals are usually in the KHz range whereas the RF noise i mention is often in the GHz range. 
 

Rob Watts is an acknowledged digital designer with decades of experience and so for the moment I would prefer to bow to his superior knowledge on RF noise in DAC circuits unless you are hiding your light under a bushel and have direct experience there. Also, he is not a lone voice on this. Many others discuss it and other manufacturers such as Innuos go to great extents to track down and reduce the noise in their digital circuits. 
 

This is way outside snake oil territory and is mainstream design in dac circuits. 

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7 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

Sure, but digital signals are usually in the KHz range whereas the RF noise i mention is often in the GHz range.

An S/PDIF signal has frequency components up to about 50 MHz. USB 2.0 goes 10 times higher.

7 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

Rob Watts is an acknowledged digital designer with decades of experience

That is true, but it (sadly) doesn't stop him making outrageous claims about audibility. Some of the things he talks about are far below the self-noise of a single resistor. You'd need some extremely sophisticated equipment to measure them, and there is absolutely no way whatsoever they can be audible. Mr Watts has products to sell, and he has picked a somewhat unique angle for talking up their virtues. One should be wary when a "problem" is only mentioned by one manufacturer who also happens to have a "solution" for sale. Now it's not fair to single out Mr Watts here. The hi-fi industry is rife with companies selling fixes for made-up issues, their claims often directly contradicting each other.

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On 12/03/2020 at 09:36, Mad4it said:

Brilliant, I was just looking for a review on the Zen and found this.....his feeling re the measurements crowd is how I feel!

I did some measurements in the past but I rather listen first and drawn my conclusions from there. Darko mentioned in the video above that the computer cannot possibly be as good as server/ dedicated digital transport... well, I have compared extensively my MacBook into dac and Auralic Aries into the same dac as well as Airport Express into - again - same dac and could not hear ANY difference ( where Auralic Aries's Airplay implementation was noticeably worse than Apple's own Airplay in the Airport Express). 

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Super Wammer
18 minutes ago, dari said:

I did some measurements in the past but I rather listen first and drawn my conclusions from there. Darko mentioned in the video above that the computer cannot possibly be as good as server/ dedicated digital transport... well, I have compared extensively my MacBook into dac and Auralic Aries into the same dac as well as Airport Express into - again - same dac and could not hear ANY difference ( where Auralic Aries's Airplay implementation was noticeably worse than Apple's own Airplay in the Airport Express). 

Your sample of one person means nothing. 
 

I have heard different Innuos servers back to back through the same dac (Dave) and heard marked differences. That was just me but there does seem to be an element of repeatability as several of my friends have heard the same differences. 

  • Haha 1

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3 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

Your sample of one person means nothing. 
 

I have heard different Innuos servers back to back through the same dac (Dave) and heard marked differences. That was just me but there does seem to be an element of repeatability as several of my friends have heard the same differences. 

"Don't measure use your ears"

"I used my ears and I didn't hear any difference"

"Your sample of one person means nothing"

You couldn't make this stuff up.

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7 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

Your sample of one person means nothing. 
 

I have heard different Innuos servers back to back through the same dac (Dave) and heard marked differences. That was just me but there does seem to be an element of repeatability as several of my friends have heard the same differences. 

fair enough.. I think, I could just ring around and find a dealer happy to offer home demo of one of the Innous transports. 

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edit. what I always do when comparing things like that I set the volume levels same for all components... that's not using my ears but db meter

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8 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

Your sample of one person means nothing
 

I have heard different Innuos servers back to back through the same dac (Dave) and heard marked differences. That was just me but there does seem to be an element of repeatability as several of my friends have heard the same differences. 

Quote

   I have heard different Innuos servers back to back... That was just me ...

I don't have a DAC, never wanted nor felt I needed one - however ah like a good disagreement...BUT...

There's definitely a sense of " You're wrong...but if I do the same thing  -  I'M RIGHT"

Trying to qualify your statement with apochryphal comment like (I paraphrase) "not just me guv, all me mates ,as well" sounds like equivocation...:pop:

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49 minutes ago, dari said:

I did some measurements in the past but I rather listen first and drawn my conclusions from there. Darko mentioned in the video above that the computer cannot possibly be as good as server/ dedicated digital transport... well, I have compared extensively my MacBook into dac and Auralic Aries into the same dac as well as Airport Express into - again - same dac and could not hear ANY difference ( where Auralic Aries's Airplay implementation was noticeably worse than Apple's own Airplay in the Airport Express). 

Good for you, probably saved a few quid huh. 

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7 minutes ago, locheeboy said:

I don't have a DAC, never wanted nor felt I needed one 

Good for you, probably saved a few quid huh. 

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Posted (edited)

General rule is that differences between transports and  other gear are more audible in more high end systems than in not so high end  systems(read cheaper, but it is not always the case as you can get excellent gear for reasonable price if you take time and search for “bargains”). That can be one explanation why some don’t hear differences. Or they just “now” it is technically impossible so their brain do the rest...

Edited by mentt

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1 minute ago, mentt said:

General rule is that differences between transports and  other gear are more audible in more high end systems than in not so high end  systems(read cheaper, but it is not always the case as you can get excellent gear for reasonable price if you take time and search for “bargains”). That can be one explanation why some don’t hear differences. Or they just “now” it is technically impossible so their brain do the rest...

Or, you've invested emotionally or financially, so you're looking for an improvement even though there isn't one.

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