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kl122002

Any chance of update in Radikal

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Daveyf said:

BTW, before you state that I have a misguided belief that Azimuth and VTA adjustment are crucial ( I didn't state on the fly, but that is a nice option)-- why don't you ask any top tonearm designer in the world, or even someone like Mike Fremer, what they think of this aspect, or lack thereof...LOL. 

To be ultra clear, i like the table and I would like to see it regain the prominence that it once had.  I just really dislike the fact that the current design limits one so much to what arm can be utilized...and that the Ekos Se-1 is so marginal in comparison to the arms that I mentioned before. Does it concern anyone here that the table is limited by this aspect;

I don't quite get the logic behind this discussion. What I understood are two assertions:

1. Linn's engineers should put more focus on the arm as there are many arms out there, which easily outperforrm the Ekos.

2. The fruitbox is limiting arms in a way, that none of the better arms work better (than the Ekos) on an LP12.

If 2. is true, then Linn's priority should be on improving the fruitbox, not the arm. This is exactly what Linn has been doing with their Karousel update. But this would also imply that Linn already created an arm, which so far cannot be bested by anything else in this specific environment. So the arm is not the weakest link in the LP12 chain. Which in turn brings us back to the original subject matter of this thread, an upgrade to Radikal?

If 2. is false, why does none of the allegedly superior arm designers step in, and build a better arm for the LP12  than the Ekos? With ~ 100.000 LP12s in the field, there should be a sizeable market for this kind of upgrade, if it improves the sound in a tunedem comparison. Fredrick Lejonklou, obviously, is not shy to build electronics that a reasonable amount of Linnies are willing to buy. 

Edited by TooManyCatweazles
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15 minutes ago, TooManyCatweazles said:

...

2. The fruitbox is limiting arms in a way, that none of the better arms work better (than the Ekos) on an LP12.

If 2. is true, then Linn's priority should be on improving the fruitbox, not the arm. This is exactly what Linn has been doing with their Karousel update. But this would also imply that Linn already created an arm, which so far cannot be bested by anything else in this specific environment. So the arm is not the weakest link in the LP12 chain. Which in turn brings us back to the original subject matter of this thread, an upgrade to Radikal?

If 2. is false, why does none of the allegedly superior arm designers step in, and build a better arm for the LP12  than the Ekos? With ~ 100.000 LP12s in the field, there should be a sizeable market for this kind of upgrade, if it improves the sound in a tunedem comparison. Fredrick Lejonklou, obviously, is not shy to build electronics that a reasonable amount of Linnies are willing to buy. 

This makes perfect sense to me. The market is hardly the perfect judge of quality and innovation, but it is a great leveller. "Linnies" are, for the most part, not uncritical fans of Linn and its products, and over the years many of them have looked to third party manufacturers for LP12 addons and substitute parts. The longevity of the Hercules and the fact that the Aro still has a substantial following years after it went out of production are evidence that Linn doesn't have things all its own way, which, from my perspective, is only right and proper.

I have no knowledge of the "superior" tonearms that have been mentioned, so I cannot comment on them. I know that it is possible to build a very good alternative tonearm for the LP12, because I have heard a system with a Tiger Paw Javelin, which was really excellent and hard to distinguish from a full Klimax level LP12. (Sadly, Tier Paw seemed to have gone to ground even before the disruption caused by Covid-19.) So why do the other manufacturers mentioned not go ahead and make their own LP12-compatible arms? The most plausible answer is that the Ekos SE/1 is actually rather a good tonearm, and that therefore those manufacturers don't think that they can make money by trying to better it.

David

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, DavidHB said:

This makes perfect sense to me. The market is hardly the perfect judge of quality and innovation, but it is a great leveller. "Linnies" are, for the most part, not uncritical fans of Linn and its products, and over the years many of them have looked to third party manufacturers for LP12 addons and substitute parts. The longevity of the Hercules and the fact that the Aro still has a substantial following years after it went out of production are evidence that Linn doesn't have things all its own way, which, from my perspective, is only right and proper.

I have no knowledge of the "superior" tonearms that have been mentioned, so I cannot comment on them. I know that it is possible to build a very good alternative tonearm for the LP12, because I have heard a system with a Tiger Paw Javelin, which was really excellent and hard to distinguish from a full Klimax level LP12. (Sadly, Tier Paw seemed to have gone to ground even before the disruption caused by Covid-19.) So why do the other manufacturers mentioned not go ahead and make their own LP12-compatible arms? The most plausible answer is that the Ekos SE/1 is actually rather a good tonearm, and that therefore those manufacturers don't think that they can make money by trying to better it.

David

While you say that you have "no knowledge of superior arms", unfortunately I do! I gave several examples of arms that if able to be mounted on the LP12 platform would clean the clock of the Ekos SE! Now you will say, well then the LP12 platform is then the problem and not the Ekos SE! While i hate to say it, I agree with that...the LP12 in its current design is a major limiting factor to being able to mount superior sounding arms. Therefore, Linn needs to update the basic design of the table and the arm in order to truly regain its prominence in the world of high end analog reproduction.

However, since the basic platform is in so many hands and that the upgradeability of the LP12 platform is what Linn has used as a marketing tool for so long. ( I'm not saying it is NOT a valid marketing tool-- and Linn is ( as we all know?) not as committed to the table any more); I would think that some design effort on their part to bring to market a superior sounding tonearm to the old war horse Ekos SE is LONG overdue; Unless Linn sees no reason to spend the R&D necessary to accomplish this---which is what i suspect is the issue here. That, plus we clearly have folks here who are perfectly happy with the arm...because like you...they have no "knowledge of superior tonearms"! IMHO and YMMV.

Edited by Daveyf

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Daveyf said:

While you say that you have "no knowledge of superior arms", unfortunately I do!

 You missed out the quotes. on my "superior". I take nothing for granted. And why "unfortunately"? If said arms really were superior, that word would be out of place; we'd all benefit, one way or another.

55 minutes ago, Daveyf said:

I gave several examples of arms that if able to be mounted on the LP12 platform would clean the clock of the Ekos SE!

The Ekos SE/1 is not fitted with a clock. You seem to be using some sort of analogy taken from, IIRC, the world of boxing. What it has to do with tonearms on an LP12 I have no idea.

55 minutes ago, Daveyf said:

Now you will say, well then the LP12 platform is then the problem and not the Ekos SE!

No, I didn't say that. Someone else said it, to call your arguments into question. That I agreed with.

55 minutes ago, Daveyf said:

the LP12 in its current design is a major limiting factor to being able to mount superior sounding arms. Therefore, Linn needs to update the basic design of the table and the arm in order to truly regain its prominence in the world of high end analog reproduction.

So you say. As I see it, you haven't made out much of a case. Which is my point.

55 minutes ago, Daveyf said:

Linn is ( as we all know?) not as committed to the table any more)

Really? Karousel and, not all that long ago, Lingo 4 and Urika II? All employing new technology. With every respect (because I still have a duty of courtesy), what planet are you living on?

55 minutes ago, Daveyf said:

I would think that some design effort on [Linn's] part to bring to market a superior sounding tonearm to the old war horse Ekos SE is LONG overdue; Unless Linn sees no reason to spend the R&D necessary to accomplish this---which is what i suspect is the issue here. That, plus we clearly have folks here who are perfectly happy with the arm...because like you...they have no "knowledge of superior tonearms"!

I have no knowledge of the arms you mention. You haven't made out any kind of case that they are demonstrably superior (whatever "superior" may mean in this context). You seem to be trying to promote dissatisfaction for no good reason, or certainly without making out a respectable case. Pejorative adjectives and by-and-large imagery don't make good statements of fact. When I relate my entirely enjoyable listening experience this afternoon to the unsupported criticisms you are trying to make, the contrast is very stark, and it does not tell in your favour.

55 minutes ago, Daveyf said:

IMHO and YMMV.

Well, quite. As you gather, my 'mileage' does indeed vary, rather a lot. And your opinions, which forum rules quite properly require me to respect, are, if I may say so, as devoid of humility as they are of substantiation.

David

Edited by DavidHB
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3 minutes ago, DavidHB said:

 You missed out the quotes. on my "superior". I take nothing for granted. And why "unfortunately"? If said arms really were superior, that word would be out of place; we'd all benefit, one way or another.

The Ekos SE/1 is not fitted with a clock. You seem to be using some sort of analogy taken from, IIRC, the world of boxing. What it has to do with tonearms on an LP12 I have no idea.

No, I didn't say that. Someone else said it, to call your arguments into question. That I agreed with.

So you say. As I see it, you haven't made out much of a case. Which is my point.

Really? Karousel and, not all that long ago, Lingo 4 and Urika II? All employing new technology. With every respect (because I still have a duty of courtesy), what planet are you living on?

I have no knowledge of the arms you mention. You haven't made out any kind of case that they are demonstrably superior (whatever "superior" may mean in this context). You seem to be trying to promote dissatisfaction for no good reason, or certainly without making out a respectable case. Pejorative adjectives and by-and-large imagery don't make good statements of fact. When I relate my entirely enjoyable listening experience this afternoon to the unsupported criticisms you are trying to make, the contrast is very stark, and it does not tell in your favour.

Well, quite. As you gather, my 'mileage' does indeed vary, quite a lot. And your opinions, which forum rules quite properly require me to respect, are, if I may say so, as devoid of humility as they are of substantiation.

David

What David said...

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David HB...when was the last time you had a conversation with Gilad Tiefenbrun? My last conversation with him made it fairly clear that Linn's direction was not ( unfortunately) predicated on the continuing success of the LP12 turntable. But, you are right, since we have forum rules, I am no longer going to debate the issues of the LP12 table with you... Since you believe the the table and arm is perfect in its current itineration...there is absolutely no point.

I'm done here.

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Is that what you call a debate?    Sorry but I see no evidence, or data or even examples of any of your claims.  If your such an expert on the matter, then what is wrong with the table or the Ekos/SE or the combinations that can't be fitted.   Everything you have said has been cryptic and claim based with no substance.   As an engineer I like fact and data,  so detail what is wrong and so holding back the sound performance of the Linn.  If you're going to make a claim, back it up with data. 

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37 minutes ago, Daveyf said:

I'm done here.

Yes your time is probably better spent elsewhere. 

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1 hour ago, 9designs said:

Is that what you call a debate?    Sorry but I see no evidence, or data or even examples of any of your claims.  If your such an expert on the matter, then what is wrong with the table or the Ekos/SE or the combinations that can't be fitted.   Everything you have said has been cryptic and claim based with no substance.   As an engineer I like fact and data,  so detail what is wrong and so holding back the sound performance of the Linn.  If you're going to make a claim, back it up with data. 

Pin

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Daveyf said:

David HB...when was the last time you had a conversation with Gilad Tiefenbrun? My last conversation with him made it fairly clear that Linn's direction was not ( unfortunately) predicated on the continuing success of the LP12 turntable.

The phrase I actually challenged was "Linn is ( as we all know?) not as committed to the table any more". Not really the same point at all. Every participant in this topic, except perhaps Daveyf, will have seen the pictures in the Karousel thread of Gilad Tiefenbrun co-presenting the first Karousel demonstration in Seattle. No lack of commitment to the product there.

2 hours ago, Daveyf said:

 Since you believe the the table and arm is perfect in its current itineration [sic]

Another misquote, even without the typo. I said that my LP12 is giving me great enjoyment (which it is),  not that it is perfect (which I would not know how to define, and am not in a position to judge).

2 hours ago, Daveyf said:

I'm done here.

Which means we can get back to discussing the thread topic.

My take on improvements to the Radikal is that, while Linn may well have something up their sleeve (and ignoring for a moment all the disruption Covid-19 will continue to cause), they'll probably wait to let the Karousel launch settle down before they make any further announcements on the LP12. What should have been a rapid take-up of Karousel will no doubt be severely impacted in current circumstances. And Linn don't even need to launch a low cost version of Radikal; that slot in the market is already neatly filled by Lingo 4.

All of that said, Linn have not lost their knack of making new product announcements come out of left field when they are so minded (Lingo 4, Urika II and Karousel all caught a fair number of people on the hop), so we mustn't be surprised if we're surprised.

David

Edited by DavidHB
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Word I got from a couple of sources is that Linn will be releasing LP12 upgrades at the rate of about one per year, for the next few years.

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I was told by the international sales manager for Linn that they were increasing R&D funding for the LP12 going forward.  This was a little over a year ago and we seem to be already seeing the fruits of that.

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Thomas, I am pleased to see that Linn has decided to once again commit some resources to the ongoing development of the LP12 table. That was my suggestion to Gilad when I had my conversation with him. 

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Still waiting to read about all the design issues you think need fixing with the deck and arm compared. 

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