Gaz38

Essential jobs and remuneration

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On 31/03/2020 at 15:40, Gaz38 said:

Their motives don't alter the figures, unless they just made them up which I suppose is possible 

It's a shadowy organisation whose funding is unclear. I have no faith in anything that it puts out.

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23 minutes ago, Guzziboy said:

It's a shadowy organisation whose funding is unclear. I have no faith in anything that it puts out.

It makes me despair how ordinary PAYE wage earners support or look up to this organisation. It is a sad reflection and part of the hate politics that has been going on for the past few years in not only this country but Europe and the USA as a whole.

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Posted (edited)
On 01/04/2020 at 05:04, Gaz38 said:

The saying "if it's your job to tell me how to do my job, at least know how to do my job" springs to mind. 

It is your job to know your job, not the managers. His only responsibility is to know what mechanism to use to measure your performance. 

Edited by Cable Monkey

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13 minutes ago, Cable Monkey said:

It is your job to know your job, not the mangers. His only responsibility is to know what mechanism to use to measure your performance. 

And therein lies the biggest problem in business/industry today

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Posted (edited)
On 31/03/2020 at 20:20, gintonic said:

mr hildich what is your experience? learnings? sector of employment?

Started of as an apprentice Electrician.  Went back to College and went into lecturing, Electrical and Electronic Engineering.  Came back to the UK late in 2001 and couldn't believe how much educational standards had fallen.  Started with Thatcher and continued with Blair.  On paper people are better educated, in fact they are victims of a barrage of targets.  Degrees have become devalued and no longer are the hallmark of intellectual attainment.  Why as a Society do we need 50% of our young people attending University?  Our employment market has become an inverted pyramid.  

As an example my Niece asked my Daughter, who had her own business in London, to use her contacts, to find her a job.  At 23 she was offered employment in the field she wanted.  The salary was too low for her, to live and service her Student debt.  They had a talk and was told, her value in the job market was no better that that of an 18 year old school leaver.  Good degree, no work experience.  She paid for a Secretarial Course, got a job as a Secretary, paid her dues and worked her way up! Now a successful design consultant. So many of our so called intellectuals, never experience life outside the educational sector.

Edited by Ron Hilditch
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Gaz38 said:

And therein lies the biggest problem in business/industry today

Please elaborate - I'm genuinely curious...

Do you see all management as superfluous, or do you simply have bad managers where you work?

Edited by horace

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Super Wammer
1 hour ago, Cable Monkey said:

It is your job to know your job, not the managers. His only responsibility is to know what mechanism to use to measure your performance. 

That might apply to managers who are managing people who dig holes in the ground or similar (i.e. scientific management or 'Taylorism'). With knowledge workers I would say the primary role of a manager should be to facilitate collaboration.

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Super Wammer
12 minutes ago, rdale said:

That might apply to managers who are managing people who dig holes in the ground or similar (i.e. scientific management or 'Taylorism'). With knowledge workers I would say the primary role of a manager should be to facilitate collaboration.

Actually I am wrong here. Taylorism and time and motion studies were a complete failure. No matter what job people are doing, digging holes in the ground or whatever, they work better if they are involved in improving things and collaborating. Rigid top down management doesn't work, and Taylor thought that managers were a class above people who were doing the work. 

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35 minutes ago, horace said:

Please elaborate - I'm genuinely curious...

Do you see all management as superfluous, or do you simply have bad managers where you work?

I don't see anything contentious about a manager having knowledge or experience of the roles of the people he is managing, unless its a remarkably simple task. Let's take a quarry as an example, should somebody with a degree in business studies be able to tell the guy setting the explosive charges how to do his job? 

In my experience the majority of managers have not got where they are through hard work, ability, skill or knowledge but through BS and arse kissing. 

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1 minute ago, Gaz38 said:

I don't see anything contentious about a manager having knowledge or experience of the roles of the people he is managing, unless its a remarkably simple task. Let's take a quarry as an example, should somebody with a degree in business studies be able to tell the guy setting the explosive charges how to do his job? 

In my experience the majority of managers have not got where they are through hard work, ability, skill or knowledge but through BS and arse kissing. 

I do sympathise with your point about BS and arse kissing - there is plenty of that about (not only among managers though). But if the managers in your organisation fit your description of them, your organisation is in trouble.

In my experience, a good manager can do a good job of managing someone whose role they do not fully understand - but that would not include telling a specialist how to do his job. That would be bad management.

We also need to define exactly what 'telling someone how to do their job' means. It doesn't always mean what some people think it means. For example, If I were managing someone with a specialist role (let's say it's the demolition expert you mentioned), I wouldn't tell him what kind of charges to use, but I would feel perfectly comfortable reminding him that he isn't complying with the company's risk assessments or that he isn't following an agreed process. If the demolition guy resents me pointing these things out, that could be because I have poor people skills - it could also be down to the attitude of the other bloke. Both of these things are very common, of course.

In summary, there are good and bad managers. The same applies to the people they manage.

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It depends upon the managers role. If he is a junior/supervisory/line manager then yes he or she most likely should know the nuts and bolts or a good understanding of what his workers do. I think it is this low level management that has been referred to. However if the owner of a newspaper or manufacturing plant is expected to know how to repair a printing press or a transfer machine then this is taking a rather simplistic view. Would we expect a chief executive of a hospital trust to be able to perform surgery, analyse blood samples, repair a boiler or patient connected equipment and be an IT technician? I would expect him or her to get the hospital trust in a place that can function safely and efficiently whilst allowing those in their specialist roles to fulfil their functions within the organisation.

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7 minutes ago, Pete the Feet said:

It depends upon the managers role. If he is a junior/supervisory/line manager then yes he or she most likely should know the nuts and bolts or a good understanding of what his workers do. I think it is this low level management that has been referred to. However if the owner of a newspaper or manufacturing plant is expected to know how to repair a printing press or a transfer machine then this is taking a rather simplistic view. Would we expect a chief executive of a hospital trust to be able to perform surgery, analyse blood samples, repair a boiler or patient connected equipment and be an IT technician? I would expect him or her to get the hospital trust in a place that can function safely and efficiently whilst allowing those in their specialist roles to fulfil their functions within the organisation.

Totally agree with you. 

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Posted (edited)

I was once a Bus Driving Instructor. As a result of various events, we found our Training School "Managed" by someone who did not have a PCV Licence. 

His role meant he sometimes had to interpret the results of a Driving Test and explain to someone who hadn't passed the reason (s) why they weren't going to be offered another opportunity to be tested. 

This was easy for the previous managers. They started as drivers and worked through to the training school management position. 

No, I did not get on well with all of them. They were effective and professional. And that is all that matters. 

The same could not be said for the individual without the licence... 

Edited by Monitor Gold Ten
Wine.

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