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Posted (edited)

Hello friends,

I am having the opportunity of doing a lot of A/B between the new Linn app and Roon and I am tempted to say that, while Roon provides a dramatically better user experience, it doesn't bring a sonic advantage when compared to the original Linn software (things can get even worse when upsampling is activated!!)

It feels like audio in Roon is less "natural", too much "digitalised"...less tone and "crispness"...

Am I missing something here????

Edited by ampvoice
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1 hour ago, ampvoice said:

Hello friends,

I am having the opportunity of doing a lot of A/B during this period between the new Linn app and Roon and I am tempted to say that, while Roon provides a dramatically better user experience, it doesn't bring a sonic advantage when compared to the original Linn software (things can get even worse when upsampling is activated!!)

It feels like audio in Roon is less "natural", too much "digitalised"...less tone and "crispness"...

Am I missing something here????

I’m not familiar with Roon but the Linn app is a pure Control Point and as such it has nothing to do with the playback. Try switching the Linn app off while playing a playlist. What happens?

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Posted (edited)

I run Roon with my PC as core which then goes trough Linn's Songcast and then to my Aedsm, it does not sound as good as with Linn's app which does not use Soncast, does not know in detail how Linn's app communicates with my dsm but it does not sound like well, that's for sure. I use Roon because it is easy to find new music and then make a playlist in my Kazoo.  I like everything about Roon except the sound quality where at least my Tidal sounds worse, I havent tried Qobuz. Isn't it fairly accepted that Songcast  through a computer to a dsm sounds worse than Linn's app?

Edited by CaptenBonScott
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Why should there be any inferior sound?

Official Roon announcement for Roon 1.5 back in 2018:

Quote

What’s New In Roon 1.5

Linn DS Support

At long last, we are happy to announce that all Linn DS streaming players are supported by Roon!

With the most recent firmware update, Linn has released a streaming mode that allows for bit perfect transmission from Roon to your Linn DS – with the DS as the clock master – guaranteeing the highest audio quality possible.

Note that Roon streaming support requires Linn’s Davaar 63 firmware, which is currently in beta.Linn plan to release it to everyone shortly, following Roon’s release today.

Once you’ve updated both your Linn DS and Roon, Roon will find your DS on the network – click enable and you should be good to go!

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I do not use Roon, but it has a lot of supporters.

The Linn app is substandard and not available across platforms (e.g. there is no Windows version).

See: 

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3 hours ago, JRS said:

The Linn app is substandard and not available across platforms (e.g. there is no Windows version).

That's a bit misleading. The Linn app is available, in beta, for iOS devices. The current Linn control point app for general use is Kazoo, which has a version available on the Windows Store. This version, in my experience, works at least as well as its counterparts on iOS and Android; in fact it is more reliable than either on an Ethernet connected computer. That's not to say that it is perfect (IMO BubbleDS on Android has a much better laid out UI), but it's entirely usable.

I take the view that the decision to develop the new app, which has clearly stalled in development, was a mistake, and that Linn should concentrate on making Kazoo more robust, particularly in iOS and Chrome OS, and a bit more user friendly..

David

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DavidHB said:

That's a bit misleading. The Linn app is available, in beta, for iOS devices. The current Linn control point app for general use is Kazoo, which has a version available on the Windows Store. This version, in my experience, works at least as well as its counterparts on iOS and Android; in fact it is more reliable than either on an Ethernet connected computer. That's not to say that it is perfect (IMO BubbleDS on Android has a much better laid out UI), but it's entirely usable.

I take the view that the decision to develop the new app, which has clearly stalled in development, was a mistake, and that Linn should concentrate on making Kazoo more robust, particularly in iOS and Chrome OS, and a bit more user friendly..

David

The Linn app has been listed on Linn’s software page for a while - it’s no longer in beta (although to use it one may think otherwise).

My suspicion is that Kazoo is still listed there as the Linn app is, as you say, only for iOS devices. Once the new app is available across all commonly used platforms, if ever, Kazoo’s future may be in doubt.

Mick

EDIT: If I recall, the Linn app was released (prematurely, I feel) when the Selekt DSM was announced.

D306B371-9C60-40B3-8CD5-89F383099474.jpeg

Edited by MickC

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, HansBertil said:

... but the Linn app is a pure Control Point and as such it has nothing to do with the playback.

That’s correct. The same holds true for Kinsky, Kazoo, Bubble DS and Lumin (and even Roon, if you only take into account its control point).

10 hours ago, JensA said:

Why should there be any inferior sound?

There are two differences. Roon adds another device (the one Roon core is running on) to the network signal chain and alters the place where some part of the signal processing takes place. Let’s assume that one is streaming from Qobuz and that the DS is directly connected to the router.

With the Linn app, the network signal chains looks like this:
Qobuz -> router -> DS

With Roon, the network signal chain becomes:
Qobuz -> router -> network device Roon core is running on -> router -> DS

Qobuz sends compressed FLAC and therefore it must be converted to raw PCM before further processing within the DS can be made. Without Roon, the DS converts the compressed FLAC to raw PCM. With Roon, the Roon core is responsible for this conversion and sending it to the DS afterwards.  

Therefore Roon adds one possible source of noise (the device Roon core is running on) to the network and increases the network traffic (Roon receives the stream from Qobuz, alters it and then sends the altered version to the DS), which is another possible source for higher network noise. It also changes the place where conversion from compressed FLAC to raw PCM takes place.

IMO there are enough differences which can cause Roon to sound different. Please note that I’ve deliberately written "different" and not "inferior".

2 hours ago, MickC said:

EDIT: If I recall, the Linn app was released (prematurely, I feel) when the Selekt DSM was announced.

The Linn app has become an official release for iOS with version 4.2.5. (its beta release date was 29th of January 2020). Current official version is 4.2.6 and the latest beta release version is 4.2.8.

Edited by BB1
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4 hours ago, DavidHB said:

I take the view that the decision to develop the new app, which has clearly stalled in development, was a mistake, and that Linn should concentrate on making Kazoo more robust, particularly in iOS and Chrome OS, and a bit more user friendly..

My point of view is, that the new app was Linn’s approach to make the control point a bit more user friendly. At large it’s just a different graphical user interface (GUI) for Kazoo. Unfortunately Linn seems to be still convinced in general that Kazoo already works as robust as it should in terms of network issues.  

I’ve lost count how often I’ve mentioned to Linn that the protocol between the DS and the control point must become more robust. For instance, prior to Davaar 70 I’ve seen a sticky timeline at my home and at my dealer. All other controls (i.e the track playing currently, volume control etc.) where still working correctly. The release notes for Davaar 70 state:

Implemented more reliable communication of device state to wireless control points

If I remember Linn’s reply correctly, prior to this change Davaar ceases to send the timeline information if the DS failed to receive a reply from the control point only once. Davaar 70 implemented retries…

There are three culprits for failing communication between the DS and the control point: Davaar, the control point software (and the OS it’s running on) and the network connection. It is Davaar’s and the control point app’s task to make the communication as robust as it could be if network glitches are to be expected.

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1 hour ago, BB1 said:

There are three culprits for failing communication between the DS and the control point: Davaar, the control point software (and the OS it’s running on) and the network connection. It is Davaar’s and the control point app’s task to make the communication as robust as it could be if network glitches are to be expected.

I agree. I have recently upgraded my router and have seen a significant improvement in connection reliability - almost (but not quite) perfect. So, clearly, the 'quality' of the router has an unreasonable effect on the system.

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I am currently on a 14 day trial of Roon and have not noticed any difference to sound quality, either positive or negative. I have a slight preference to Qobuz tracks compared to my own FLAC rips. I have been doing extensive listening to a few of my test tracks with the Linn app and Roon. I am not hearing any difference that would cause me to cancel my subscription. It was the constant connection/discovery issues with the Linn control points (going back years) that made me look for an alternative.

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5 hours ago, entdgc said:

I agree. I have recently upgraded my router and have seen a significant improvement in connection reliability - almost (but not quite) perfect. So, clearly, the 'quality' of the router has an unreasonable effect on the system.

What brand and model of new router did you get?

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11 hours ago, Billz said:

I am currently on a 14 day trial of Roon and have not noticed any difference to sound quality, either positive or negative. I have a slight preference to Qobuz tracks compared to my own FLAC rips. I have been doing extensive listening to a few of my test tracks with the Linn app and Roon. I am not hearing any difference that would cause me to cancel my subscription. It was the constant connection/discovery issues with the Linn control points (going back years) that made me look for an alternative.

I've been a Roon user now for eight months or so - the connection to the DS has always been rock solid and to my recall Roon has found the DS every single time I've run Roon Remote on my iPad or iPhone. The same cannot be said of Kazoo or the Linn app...

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Has anyone else had issues with the Linn remote while playing a Roon playlist. When I press pause on the Linn remote it skipped to the next track. If I hold pause it will pause the track but no button on the remote will get it to play again. Volume on the remote OK.

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Yup,same here.

Plus front panel controls will not execute until I quit Roon. 

But hey, it’s only hifi😬

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