Paulssurround

Adding Correct Toe-In Rotation Angle To SOv2 Is Critical To Success

Recommended Posts

I had an email from PDW today, that he had spent some time today, getting his speaker rotation measured accurately and entered into SOv2 for the speaker toe-in.

He wanted to know if it made any improvements to sound quality. He had originally entered 10 degrees toe-in for his Akudoriks Into SOv2  but found out that it was actually 8 degrees rotation of toe-in. He surmised that a difference of 2 degrees would probably not make much difference to sound quality and sound stage, but it turns out it was significant.

He encouraged me to more accurately measure the toe-in of my speakers. I found my drafting t-bar, my protractor and a laser measure to help facilitate a straight line to more accurately measure the angles. I suppose you could also use a carpenters square and a protractor, but I did not have one available.

I am embarrassed to say that when I originally entered in the values for my toe-in on my Akubariks and Akudoriks, that my guesstimate was way off. I had originally entered my Akubariks as a -17 and plus 17 degree toe-in, and with more accurate measurements today, found out they were actually  -10 and plus 10 degrees.The Akudoriks were originally entered as -125 and plus 125 degrees toe-in, and with more accurate measurements, turned out to be -105 and plus 105 degrees.

So my original estimates on speaker rotation were not even close. 

I reentered the correct angles, and then pressed finish in SOv2, to  calculate my new profile.

I am please to say that improvements in sound quality were significant in stereo and in surround. I played several of my favourite demo songs in stereo and noticed that the bass , and specifically the drums, were now prominent and present in the presentation of the music. Overall, the music was more relaxed, cleaner and more detailed. In a word: superb.

The real surprise came when I played Donald Fagen’s Nightfly, and The Doors album Waiting for the Sun, in 5.1 surround. Nightfly is an album that I have played thousands of times and know every note. The music now seemed so much more alive, detailed, and listenable. I could not believe all the detail I had been missing, with Jim Morrison’s squeals and guttural  sounds in the background vocals, that I had not heard before, as well as some surprising instrumentation. The Doors drum set was very prominent in the music, with the thwack of the drumsticks, rattle of the snare drums and shimmer of the high hats like I had never heard it before. The overall presentation was quite different from what I had heard in the past, and I ended up listening to music all evening. 

This was an extremely useful exercise and my great thanks to PDW.

If you don’t toe-in the speakers, then this thread will not be useful to you, but for those that do.......enjoy.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, mirrored. You are very cool! 😜

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Geoff_UK said:

Paul,

what do you suggest as the best way to measure the angle - I've tried and failed a number of times in the past and just ended up guessing

I used a protractor, similar to Baba Yaga’s.  👌

If you don’t have a protractor, just print one off on your computer from a downloaded copy, or use Baba Yaga’s image above on your iPad and expand the image.

I also wanted a straight edge, to ensure that I was exactly 90 degrees from the front wall , so I used a T-square that I would have used for a drafting table. 

Then I used the laser on my laser measure to ensure that I had a straight line to use as a reference.

This process is probably more simple with square speaker cabinets, but my Akubariks and Akudoriks have rounded sides, so a little more tricky to line up

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I used the compass on my iPhone. I measured off of the floor planks. I guess if you have carpet you could simply measure off of the side walls.

Edited by akamatsu
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, akamatsu said:

I used the compass on my iPhone. I measured off of the floor planks. I guess if you have carpet you could simply measure off of the side walls.

Thats what I did... although expect there is still the potential for some error in this method 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, JohnnyBuchan said:

Thats what I did... although expect there is still the potential for some error in this method 

Agreed. I took several measurements until I got consistent results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Right now I have no toe in. I'm just sighting that the top edges of my 212's are parallel to the grout lines in the floor.

With the Ninkas I was using a large framing square, the grout lines and a protractor. They definitely presented a better image when I toed them to 8° after testing the range from 5°-15°.

Edited by Jail4CEOs2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jail4CEOs2 said:

Right now I have no toe in. I'm just sighting that the top edges of my 212's are parallel to the grout lines in the floor.

With the Ninkas I was using a large framing square, the grout lines and a protractor. They definitely presented a better image when I toed them to 8° after testing the range from 5°-15°.

I read recently that speakers with 3K arrays don't need to be toed in. This is due to the wide dispersion of the 3K.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Yes, but it seems the two gurus at the top of this thread are using a toe on 3K speakers. I've played with a degree or two on the 212's, and something is definitely perceptible, a la open or closed doors well down range of the listening position.

Edited by Jail4CEOs2
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, akamatsu said:

I read recently that speakers with 3K arrays don't need to be toed in. This is due to the wide dispersion of the 3K.

Having spoken to Philbo in person on the subject of toe-in, and he has said depending on the room layout and listening position, that many speakers with 3K arrays do benefit from toe-in.

Toe-in is a very useful tool to get better imaging of the sound stage.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 08/07/2020 at 19:42, Paulssurround said:

Having spoken to Philbo in person on the subject of toe-in, and he has said depending on the room layout and listening position, that many speakers with 3K arrays do benefit from toe-in.

Toe-in is a very useful tool to get better imaging of the sound stage.

https://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Akubarik_Aktiv#Positioning

The following is contained within the above linked document; "The Linn 3K Array used in the Akubarik loudspeaker offers exceptional dispersion characteristics. This means that there should be little or no need to toe-in your loudspeakers."

When I picture in my mind the Akubariks that I don't have yet, I always imagine them square with the room. Fortunately, I find imaging of the sound stage rather annoying.

Edited by akamatsu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jail4CEOs2 said:

Yes, but it seems the two gurus at the top of this thread are using a toe on 3K speakers. I've played with a degree or two on the 212's, and something is definitely perceptible, a la open or closed doors well down range of the listening position.

Rather than follow "gurus," I would suggest you try and see for yourself. I'm just glad that the speakers I'm getting don't need to be toed in to sound good. I don't plan on any toe-in, but I may give it a try just to see what I prefer. I have the advantage being able to sit far enough from the speakers that it probably won't matter.

Edited by akamatsu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.