Nearly bewildered

Best dac for PRaT?

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1 hour ago, Nearly bewildered said:

It can certainly bring out a rhythm in the music which was already there..a less ' musical ' dac cant..but you wouldnt know that if you didn't own such a dac...these grooving dacs can make you feel the whole vibe of the music whereas another less musical dac will just let you hear some of it..in my opinion..

This reminds me of the time I listened to a number of CD players at Sounds of Music in East Sussex. With some, my mind wandered but with others it was all but impossible not to be sucked in and held by the music. I suppose one could describe that as feeling the vibe of the music. On that basis a Marantz SACD player did the best and was the one I bought. Pity really as I particularly liked the one with the wooden faceplate and was never that keen on the aesthetics of the Marantz.

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6 hours ago, Camverton said:

Pity really as I particularly liked the one with the wooden faceplate and was never that keen on the aesthetics of the Marantz.

I hate it when that happens. You put all your effort into liking something then something you don't fancy totally outshines it :)

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Super Wammer
13 hours ago, fled said:

I have been swapping a few boxes recently and reading a lot of reviews on new kit "musical" appears to be the latest meaningless expression in the world of hifi. 

The term musical is used extensively in the playing or recording process and can refer to notes played or how the notes are played or something like the sound of eq.

When thinking about how notes are played it seems to many people that hifi equipment does affect how the notes played are reproduced. Some equipment will produce the music in a more stop start fashion and others will allow notes to sound more tied together.

If we are talking about classical or jazz or something where musical expression is important then yes people can say that one item or system sounds more musical than another because the notes are tied together better. I think this is what many people refer to when using the term musical. 

Also in classical circles performers talk about playing with good tone. A system that allows this good tone to come through could also be called musical. 

PRAT is fine if you want to listen in a particular way and there are more brands than Naim who do this today. Naim are less PRATy to my ears than they used to be and this is probably why there are more avenues for PRAT. 

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Super Wammer
8 hours ago, Camverton said:

This reminds me of the time I listened to a number of CD players at Sounds of Music in East Sussex. With some, my mind wandered but with others it was all but impossible not to be sucked in and held by the music. I suppose one could describe that as feeling the vibe of the music. On that basis a Marantz SACD player did the best and was the one I bought. Pity really as I particularly liked the one with the wooden faceplate and was never that keen on the aesthetics of the Marantz.

My wife wanted a CD player and also a SS amp and we found Marantz to be the more musical of what we tried. Instruments tended more to sound correct and the musical reproduction of notes seemed more real. I don’t think that many people would say that Marantz has PRAT but to me rhythm and timing are spot on. If pace means that the music sounds like it is in a hurry then that’s not Marantz.

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11 hours ago, Blackmetalboon said:

Not in my experience.

How broken does it have to be to do that?

I had a Denon DCD-1450AR (2x PCM1702-L) once which sounded noticeably lacking in "dynamism" compared to a Parasound DAC 1000 and a Pioneer PD-91, most likely due to an undersized PS.

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On ‎12‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 22:16, CnoEvil said:

I read the title as "the best DAC for a Prat" - which intrigued me. The real content is a lot less interesting, I have to say. :doh:

B----x beaten to it.>:(:)

l have the Audionote 0.1x dac and that bops along very nicely indeed.:geek:

Edited by Tarzan
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PRaT

Inky blacks 

Transparency

What other meaningless terms are there 

Ah. "Musicality" 

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1 minute ago, kernow said:

PRaT

Inky blacks 

Transparency

What other meaningless terms are there 

Ah. "Musicality" 

You forgot, As Smooth as Butter. 

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18 minutes ago, kernow said:

PRaT

Inky blacks 

Transparency

What other meaningless terms are there 

Ah. "Musicality" 

Measured 😁

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23 minutes ago, kernow said:

PRaT

Inky blacks 

Transparency

What other meaningless terms are there 

Ah. "Musicality" 

What about liquid, finesse, delicate, holographic, 3D, atmospheric, depth........ I could go on :)

I quite like them actually and sometimes people even agree on some of these terms and expressions used. But how else do you describe sound, you can't. Even if two things measure the same but don't sound the same there is nothing left but words.

Machines and instruments are limited to what they measure only. Our senses and brains go further, they can compare, contrast, interpret and subjectivize.

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Moderator

I've actually always thought that 'pace, rythm and timing' was the most stupid and meaningless term ever made up to categorise audio equipment, especially something in the digital sphere. WTF do 'pace and timing' mean, apart from the obvious? Unless it's a turntable running at the wrong speed, it's nonsensical.

Many terms that are used are easy to interpret, well for me they are. I completely understand what someone means if they describe something as having a 'holgraphic presentation' or when they talk about 'flowing'. I actually do get the 'inky blacks', though it beats me why people couldn't simply say a very low noise floor. But 'pace'. Nope.

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7 minutes ago, rabski said:

I've actually always thought that 'pace, rythm and timing' was the most stupid and meaningless term ever made up to categorise audio equipment, especially something in the digital sphere. WTF do 'pace and timing' mean, apart from the obvious? Unless it's a turntable running at the wrong speed, it's nonsensical.

Many terms that are used are easy to interpret, well for me they are. I completely understand what someone means if they describe something as having a 'holgraphic presentation' or when they talk about 'flowing'. I actually do get the 'inky blacks', though it beats me why people couldn't simply say a very low noise floor. But 'pace'. Nope.

I suspect the PRaT business may relate to transient response. 

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Super Wammer
58 minutes ago, kernow said:

PRaT

Inky blacks 

Transparency

What other meaningless terms are there 

Ah. "Musicality" 

Keep up! Musical is a term that musicians, engineers and producers use regularly. Why would anyone not want a hifi that sounded musical? You can have unmusical or mechanical sounding hifi if you prefer. 

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20 minutes ago, eddie-baby said:

What about liquid, finesse, delicate, holographic, 3D, atmospheric, depth........ I could go on :)

I quite like them actually and sometimes people even agree on some of these terms and expressions used. But how else do you describe sound, you can't. Even if two things measure the same but don't sound the same there is nothing left but words.

Machines and instruments are limited to what they measure only. Our senses and brains go further, they can compare, contrast, interpret and subjectivize.

It is a problem trying to describe sound with words but hopefully there is enough common understanding to have a reasonably meaningful discussion. The alternative is to use measurements but how many have the in depth knowledge, expertise and experience to interpret them? I would suggest quite a small percentage of the contributors to this forum. I always think it is nice use a bit of both.

I notice you include holographic and 3D above. This is a characteristic of the sound of a speaker in a room that has become very important to me the more so since using speakers that do this - very difficult to go back to conventional presentation. I haven’t yet identified a measurement that shows this valuable psycho acoustic effect but not for want of trying.

As for musical, I remember listening to a very impressive sounding modern design with a concert going friend and he was suitably impressed, but on switching to my omnis he said, ah but that is musical, or words to that effect. He was quite right as well!

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