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8 hours ago, wobbler123 said:

I can't understand why people spend lots of money on digital cables. It's not like analogue cables where a difference in capacitance might affect the sound ever so slightly. You are dealing with basically a stream of 1's or 0's and any cable isn't going to make the 1's any more 1 than the 1 it already is. I have tried several cable but can't tell the difference tbh. Digital audio is a different ball game. Personally i wouldn't waste my money on cables and spend money on better hardware. A better DAC with standard cables will always be better than a mediocre DAC with the best cables you can find. Just saying.........

Why waste your money on a DAC when most sound the same? ;)

Actually changing my plastic toslink to glass fibre did make a difference, more detail and separation.

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If your digital source is a general purpose PC it would probably make more sense to change to a dedicated streaming device rather than changing cables.

I see the point and benefit of the Eitr, but not the Wyred. The Eitr is a full USB to SPDIF converter, the Wyred is a USB to USB 'converter', but seems to serve no real purpose. It doesn't have galvan

Agreed with @rdale  However having been a long term usb cable sceptic I tried a few ‘exotic’ ones some moths ago and they were all different to the Supra 2.0 USB that I had been using quite happi

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interesting , i never knew that about toslink . care to recommend a decent glass one anyone ? 

might try this one unless anyone has better suggestion 

https://www.futureshop.co.uk/qed-reference-optical-quartz?gclid=Cj0KCQjwtsv7BRCmARIsANu-CQfTPA23shBbSEH8nw1rX98ZiEbHF2wgfu_pLQtfgMkCx6CCAEFC1sEaAnR1EALw_wcB

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10 hours ago, StingRay said:

Why waste your money on a DAC when most sound the same? ;)

Actually changing my plastic toslink to glass fibre did make a difference, more detail and separation.

This is exactly what I think. My dac has an ESS Sabre ESS9038 which is not bad. I would like to get out the most of it. And as I heard my i22 in different setup, I know it has reserves. 

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14 hours ago, joolz said:

Sorry Bob, but you've failing to understand that although it might be just 1's and 0's, the 'ramp' between them is most important -all the 0.** were the vast majority of information sits.

i didn't want to spend lots of money on digital cables, but once you have some decent kit and start doing some critical listening the differences are no less pronounced than in the analogue domain.

I do agree that you should spend the bulk of the money on the equipment first before splashing out on expensive cables, but sometimes.......

Joolz

As far as i know and i am just going off experience as an electrical engineer for the past 35 years there is no information between the 0's and 1's. It is or it isn't. I can understand having a cable of good quality that is well shielded even if all the individual conductors are individually shielded but there will be a point where it doesn't make any difference especially on digital and this will not be very expensive. A 24 bit byte with minimal interference will sound the same no matter what. Different processes of decoding will be more noticeable as opposed to changing the wire link. Optical may differ but that is not my field. I do agree with some posts though that any cable has to be good enough to do a job down to the signal it has to carry, the power it has to transfer or the noise issues that may occur for purpose. 

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14 hours ago, StingRay said:

Why waste your money on a DAC when most sound the same? ;)

Actually changing my plastic toslink to glass fibre did make a difference, more detail and separation.

It may well be there is little difference regarding the digital section of a DAC but in my experience that's not all the story and that could be down the the implementation and technical aspects of the audio section. 

Over the past couple of years I've tried 6 different DACs in my system using their output to drive my active speakers directly. One DAC gave a mediocre result,  two were quite edgy and aggressive sounding, two were very good, and my current one gave an outstanding performance in my system. Not saying it would be the same in another system as it may be down to technical aspects of system matching such as impedance and/or voltage output levels.

Just saying system matching aspects might account for why some easily hear a difference and others don't. 

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7 hours ago, wobbler123 said:

Joolz

As far as i know and i am just going off experience as an electrical engineer for the past 35 years there is no information between the 0's and 1's. It is or it isn't. I can understand having a cable of good quality that is well shielded even if all the individual conductors are individually shielded but there will be a point where it doesn't make any difference especially on digital and this will not be very expensive. A 24 bit byte with minimal interference will sound the same no matter what. Different processes of decoding will be more noticeable as opposed to changing the wire link. Optical may differ but that is not my field. I do agree with some posts though that any cable has to be good enough to do a job down to the signal it has to carry, the power it has to transfer or the noise issues that may occur for purpose. 

I messaged you directly on this but as you are pushing your view in the thread it deserves a response in public.

There is so more to digital cables than just transmitting the 1s and 0s. The main culprit is high frequency noise which piggy backs on the digital signal. This does not alter the digital signal but what it does do is get into the DAC analogue stage and produce intermodulation distortion and which is easily heard as a slight hardening of the mids and treble. It is often mistaken for extra 'detail' or 'soundstage' or 'depth' but it is just false artifacts masking the real music detail.

Using optical connections can help to break the noise chain but even so the noise circumvents this break and travels through the ground plane to get into the DAC analogue stage. If the audio equipment is isolated from the ground plane by using batteries then this is better but not practical for most people. Also, the optical converters required in the DAC when using optical cables can themselves generate electrical noise.

The high frequency noise comes from all around us. Routers, DECT phones, mobile phones, dimmers, LED lights etc etc. Audio equipment often has processors operating at just the sort of frequency which is problematical. All of this noise is outside audible frequencies and is inaudible until it interferes with the analogue signal on the analogue board in the DAC causing intermodulation distortion in the music. This is a very real problem and explains why we hear differences with different digital cables. Current streamer and DAC design is focussed on this very area for just that reason.

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You have the measurements that show the increased IMD?

No of course you don’t, just more FUD.

Keith

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On 29/09/2020 at 10:09, hifinutt said:

interesting , i never knew that about toslink . care to recommend a decent glass one anyone ? 

might try this one unless anyone has better suggestion 

https://www.futureshop.co.uk/qed-reference-optical-quartz?gclid=Cj0KCQjwtsv7BRCmARIsANu-CQfTPA23shBbSEH8nw1rX98ZiEbHF2wgfu_pLQtfgMkCx6CCAEFC1sEaAnR1EALw_wcB

If all you want is use a fibreglass cable instead of a plastic one then try the below which is much cheaper and works really well . As with all cables you can spend a huge amount more and you may hear a huge difference but these are very good and so easy to fit in tight spaces. I know what you are thinking at this cost they must be awful well I was introduced to them by Dspeaker in Finland who sent a pair to me as the best cables to use with their products . Not only do they have a great mechanical click when they plug in but they sound excellent as well , why pay more ?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Optical-Toslink-Audio-Fibreglass-Cable-For-5-1-7-1-Dolby-Surround-Gold-Plated/114254181339?hash=item1a9a1473db:g:5wYAAOSwzpFa0IxF&var=414509655428

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11 minutes ago, bencat said:

If all you want is use a fibreglass cable instead of a plastic one then try the below which is much cheaper and works really well . As with all cables you can spend a huge amount more and you may hear a huge difference but these are very good and so easy to fit in tight spaces. I know what you are thinking at this cost they must be awful well I was introduced to them by Dspeaker in Finland who sent a pair to me as the best cables to use with their products . Not only do they have a great mechanical click when they plug in but they sound excellent as well , why pay more ?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Optical-Toslink-Audio-Fibreglass-Cable-For-5-1-7-1-Dolby-Surround-Gold-Plated/114254181339?hash=item1a9a1473db:g:5wYAAOSwzpFa0IxF&var=414509655428

That looks too cheap for fibreglass. 

This is the one I have: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Boaacoustic-Optical-Digital-Soundbar-Playstation-Toslink-Cable/dp/B07X75DH1M/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=JIB+Boaacoustic+HiFi+Fiber+Optical+Digital+Audio+Cable%2C+Toslink+Cable&qid=1601466146&s=electronics&sr=1-1

Edited by StingRay
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20 minutes ago, StingRay said:

Given they are being sold from Germany and they really do frown on not describing items correctly (the fines are huge in tens of thousands) I woulds say that they are what they claim to be .

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2 minutes ago, bencat said:

Given they are being sold from Germany and they really do frown on not describing items correctly (the fines are huge in tens of thousands) I woulds say that they are what they claim to be .

Not sure but they sell a premium one which looks similar for around £25, maybe it is glass fibre but low fibre content. Many glass fibre even non hifi brand names are around £70+. 

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10 hours ago, PuritéAudio said:

You have the measurements that show the increased IMD?

No of course you don’t, just more FUD.

Keith

First sign of madness.

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8 minutes ago, Warszawa said:

First sign of madness.

If you don't feed the seagulls..they clear off eventually....maybe hang around looking pathetic hoping for a crumb of bread? But after a while they clear off back to the sea...just saying.. 🙃

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2 minutes ago, Nearly bewildered said:

If you don't feed the seagulls..they clear off eventually....maybe hang around looking pathetic hoping for a crumb of bread? But after a while they clear off back to the sea...just saying.. 🙃

And the more you feed them, the more full of shit they get.

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