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Greenstreet or Kore?


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1 hour ago, pdcman said:

Both the Kore and Keel sound miles better than the GS, 

Were you able to compare them anywhere?

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4 hours ago, pdcman said:

Worked on a few. Could never get an LP12 with a GS chassis to sound like an LP12!

There's always the "buy cheap get cheap" adage which seems to apply here.  Yes, Linn stuff is pricey compared to knock-offs but there's a reason for that.   The fit and finish is usually impeccable, the dealer network loyal and friendly (in my experience.). I call the GS a knock off as opposed to a genuine third party creative alternative such as Tiger Paw's sub chassis or the Naim Armageddon.   

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Super Wammer
1 hour ago, mskaye said:

There's always the "buy cheap get cheap" adage which seems to apply here.  Yes, Linn stuff is pricey compared to knock-offs but there's a reason for that.   The fit and finish is usually impeccable, the dealer network loyal and friendly (in my experience.). I call the GS a knock off as opposed to a genuine third party creative alternative such as Tiger Paw's sub chassis or the Naim Armageddon.   

and don't forget the engineering that goes into their products. Those engineers don't work for peanuts. But it's the engineering that has Linn products perform so well. One can look at a Keel and try to copy it, but it's not as easy to copy engineering, if you aren't an engineer.

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A problem with replicas is that certain parameters are not recognised because the knowledge about them is not available or one simply does not believe that these parameters are important for the sound. Mostly the former is the reason.

A fictitious example:
I have an LP12 frame that sounds good. Now someone comes and builds the exact same one, it doesn't sound so good. What is the reason for this?

It could be that the manufacturer of the good frame knows that when you hit wood at waning moon this wood has special characteristics* and the other person doesn't know that. This is only an example, I am not saying that it is so. But trees and mushrooms are already ingenious.

* Moonwood is said to be particularly dry, low-shrinkage, crack-free, warp-resistant, less susceptible to rot or insect infestation and more weather-resistant.

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3 hours ago, Johannes said:

A problem with replicas is that certain parameters are not recognised because the knowledge about them is not available or one simply does not believe that these parameters are important for the sound.

It is important to recognise that, while the LP12 is a modular system, it is not an open system. Indeed, decisions made by third party component vendors can often run counter to the intentions of the Linn designers. Only they are in a position to say authoritatively that a particular component is or is not compatible with the system as a whole. Essentially, it is their knowledge, embodied in hardware, that makes the turntable into something that is recognisably an LP12. The more one fits third party components to a deck, the less it is an LP12.

Of course, this general rule applies to different components in differing degrees, depending on the function of the component and its position in the 'hierarchy'. Third party tonearms, for instance, have a respectable history on the LP12. I would be (and in the past have been) much more prepared to use a third party cartridge or phono stage than a non Linn bearing. So, when considering third party upgrades, we always need to ask ourselves what is wrong with the stock part. If, as is often the case, the answer is 'cost',  the better long term approach will usually be to find some way of making the stock part affordable, rather than fitting a compromised third party alternative.

David

Edited by DavidHB
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13 hours ago, DavidHB said:

It is important to recognise that, while the LP12 is a modular system, it is not an open system. Indeed, decisions made by third party component vendors can often run counter to the intentions of the Linn designers. Only they are in a position to say authoritatively that a particular component is or is not compatible with the system as a whole. Essentially, it is their knowledge, embodied in hardware, that makes the turntable into something that is recognisably an LP12. The more one fits third party components to a deck, the less it is an LP12.

Of course, this general rule applies to different components in differing degrees, depending on the function of the component and its position in the 'hierarchy'. Third party tonearms, for instance, have a respectable history on the LP12. I would be (and in the past have been) much more prepared to use a third party cartridge or phono stage than a non Linn bearing. So, when considering third party upgrades, we always need to ask ourselves what is wrong with the stock part. If, as is often the case, the answer is 'cost',  the better long term approach will usually be to find some way of making the stock part affordable, rather than fitting a compromised third party alternative.

David

Again, the main thing being another manufacturer's attempt to elevate an aspect of the performance of the LP12 vs. simply copying a part at a lower price.  The Naim Aro was never meant to replace the incisiveness of the Ekos.  It was meant as an alternative based on certain listening/sonic preferences.  I would think that the Roksan Nima tonearm, if produced during the same time that the Naim Aro was produced, would simply be a knock-off of the Aro.   Ultimately to each their own, but when it comes to the integral Linn turntable, stick with authentic Linn parts.  

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21 hours ago, mskaye said:

Yes, Linn stuff is pricey compared to knock-offs but there's a reason for that.   The fit and finish is usually impeccable, the dealer network loyal and friendly (in my experience.). 

Don't disagree with the fit and finish argument, although that could easily be corrected.  But the dealer network argument falls flat here in the US.  5% of Linn dealers here know how to set up an LP12, the rest wouldn't know an LP12 from a...............  well, you get my drift!  The majority of LP12 parts/upgrade sales in the US are mail order and DIY (and probably off-the-record).

Edited by sktn77a
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Possible non-compatibility with the Karousel bearing (if nothing else) would definitely swing me towards the Kore. And if you ever DO decide to get a Keel (or Keel 2), you can always trade in the Kore, the Greenstreet subchassis will be much more difficult to sell.

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In the US the Linn Kore is $1,200, the Greenstreet $895.  The Greenstreet, I recon is closer to the Linn Keel than the Kore which seems to be dissimilar in construction.

Edited by John76
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Similar in looks has nothing to do with similar in sound.  There are several differences in the construction of the Greenstreet compared to the Keel, all of which are there to make the product cheaper, which they do in more ways than one.  The Kore gives you about 80-85% of the sound of the Keel for a little over a third the price and is a very musical unit.  The Greenstreet did not overly impress me and I have installed a few.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just for those with the Greenstreet subchassis, David Genther now has the shim in stock.  $29.00 with free shipping in the USA, plus $2.50 shipping elsewhere in the world.

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Hey Thomas,

Have you installed a Karousel on a GS sub and did either part require any modification?

Thanks!

Edited by John76
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20 hours ago, John76 said:

Hey Thomas,

Have you installed a Karousel on a GS sub and did either part require any modification?

Thanks!

Hopefully Thomas will pipe in here, but I will say that I went with the Greenstreet subchassis and he did the work. I know he is not a fan but I felt that for my money, I wanted to try to fit the Radikal (Akurate level) into my budget. So I took my old LP12 that had the Valhalla power supply and the Ittok arm and took out a small loan. I called Thomas O'Keefe and let him know that I wanted to use the Greenstreet. I don't think he was thrilled but he also understood that I was trying to get the Karousel bearing upgrade during the promotion (I had to order minimum $4,000 from Linn). So I elected to purchase 3 things from Linn: 1) Radikal, 2) Adikt MM cartridge to replace my aging K9 & 3) Trampolin kit. He installed a new tonearm cable at the same time that I had purchased from an English eBay seller as well. 

So when he set out to install the new Karousel bearing into the Greenstreet, I do not recall him having to use shims or anything. I know he uses a torque wrench on all the fasteners and for the big nut that holds the Karousel to the precision hole in the sub chassis, I did not observe him remarking that anything extra was required for the installation.

I am still in the "auditioning" stage with my Linn LP12 safely back at home. I imagined that the rigidity afforded by the CNC milled aluminum subchassis. would give the Karousel bearing and my new cartridge the best chance possible to extract musical information from my records. I looked forward to great bass response, hidden detailing being revealed from my favorite recordings, etc... and YES, this is indeed what I have been experiencing.

BTW @sktn77a mentioned David with Greenstreet. I will put a shout out to him and mention that he was great to work with. Their product appears to be very accurately produced and I feel that (for me) it represents a good value. My normal audiophile practice of auditioning only one change in my audio system at a time before making another change got blown out of the water here since I made all these epic changes simultaneously. It has been intense!

Edited by masi61
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@masi61,

Thanks for your info.  I assume you purchased the Cirkus version of the GS subchassis which has a thickness around the bearing mount just shy of 2mm.  I was curious if it was thick enough to clamp properly with the Karousel without modification.  I have the pre-Cirkus version GS sub so will need to use the shim for sure.

Edited by John76
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