wHIZZY

Do routers influence sound quality when streaming

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24 minutes ago, Nopiano said:

True enough, but I read it more as simply implying it’s system dependent.  I’m not sure Ethernet cables can even give off RF, but if they do, then it’s surely true that any RF may be picked up by analogue signal cables - unless they are screened, perhaps?

Overall, I find it most notable that they aren’t keen on the more recent Cat classifications, probably accepting that audio isn’t actually that demanding in the scheme of things. 

Hi,

All analogue cables are screened - the outer conductor acts as the screen (0volts/ground). Unshielded ethernet cables will transmit EMI, as do all wires that conduct electricity, but the energy in the EMI transmission is very low due to the low voltages used and low currents consumed.

I should have said, i was using your post as a reference point, not replying to you specifically.

Regards,

Shadders.

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6 minutes ago, Shadders said:

but the energy in the EMI transmission is very low due to the low voltages used and low currents consumed.

is it higher if the Ethernet cable comes into contact with an unshielded power cable?

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2 hours ago, Phobic said:

doesn't anyone else listen to music while posting here or reading about hifi stuff at the same time?

Nearly always. 

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Just now, MartinC said:

My speaker cables aren't ;).

Hi,

Yes, i know. Which prompts me to take this a bit further.

On another forum, someone was stating that RFI gets into the speaker cable and through the negative feedback circuit causing intermodulation. It can be shown that for mobile phones, that the energy coupled into the speaker cable, which is attenuated by the zobel network (or two for some amplifiers), that the energy density of the mobile signal is less than the thermal noise energy density of the feedback resistors - so had no effect.

The person claiming that the feedback circuit was prone to RFI was the brother of someone who sold a zobel network gadget to add to the amplifier power output terminals. It was only the sharp eyes of one of the other forum posters that worked out who the person was. A lot of fanciful theories with no measurements to back it up, allows for a lot of shilling on forums. :D

Regards,

Shadders.

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1 hour ago, Fourlegs said:

a level headed  post.

and it sums up why all the 'Ive worked in data transmission for 96 years' type posts are not always 100% relevant to hifi systems.

Just a slight add to that. I think that the idea that interference can also be transmitted on a digital cable as well as the digital signal and cause problems in the receiving equipment is rather more than a suggestion. I would say that outside the subset of wam naysayers it is accepted fact. What is less certain is whether the same or indeed different interference can get past the ethernet magnetics isolation features. My hunch is the same as Phobic's and that it can get into the equipment chain through the ethernet connection or at least enough of it can to cause audible IMD when it eventually finds its way into the analogue stage of the DAC. It does seem that relatively small amounts of IMD are quite audible.

Seeing as you know I agree with you on some things, I feel duty bound to query one thing here. Specifically, the idea that all of this is 'accepted fact'. It seems to be anything other than accepted fact, other than that it is 'accepted' by people with specific interests.

Actually, it seems to me to be the exact opposite of accepted fact.

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8 minutes ago, Phobic said:

is it higher if the Ethernet cable comes into contact with an unshielded power cable?

Hi,

The transfer of EMI from the power cord to the ethernet cable is at a maximum if they are in very close proximity and parallel to one another. If the cables are randomly placed, with very little parallel configuration, the coupling between the two is extremely low. My cables all run down from the amplifier (including the power cable) and are parallel in this respect, but their distance from the power cable of 4 inches or more means near zero coupling.

It is a case of worrying causing more issues than what is actually occurring.

Regards,

Shadders.

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My instinct tells me this is a 'rabbit hole', there's surely no difference. A way to rephrase the topic for consideration: would the same apply to audio in a movie you're streaming, is that also worthy of consideration? Again, surely not?

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42 minutes ago, jamster said:

And then you need to make sure you lower the radio output on each one so it is not fighting with its neighbours.

Some of the more recent mesh WiFi systems are actually pretty good and manage a lot of the complexity for you. You need to get one with a separate radio for backhaul to main router (equivalent of separate ethernet cable).

Actually if you set them to auto channel allocate it generally works out pretty well.

I have an issue with Mesh (and a similar issue with  "WiFi extenders") - the mesh is established using WiFi links between access points, and back to the main router, that themselves will have been attenuated by intervening distance/walls/furniture etc. So, to reach the least-accessible parts of the mesh, which may well not have a good direct connection back to the main router, the signal may need to pass through one or more wireless links that will have been attenuated to a greater or lesser extent. That doesn't affect the data itself (which will be nicely regenerated for the final "hop" to the receiving device), but as the quality of the radio connection directly affects the achievable data rate on the link, it does have an effect on the bandwidth available to that part of the network and in pathological cases can also adversely affect the packet loss rate.  Unfortunately, from the user perspective, although Mesh is marketed as being Plug and Play, it can be more like Plug and Pray if you don't know what you are doing.

Much better to forget Mesh and go for a wired Ethernet backhaul.

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I found splitting the bands on my router did improve the wifi considerably, upstairs it was really slow about 2mb but now it's about 20mb, still slower than wired connection but a vast improvement and that is on the 2.4ghzs band. 

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Super Wammer
21 minutes ago, Headcoat said:

My instinct tells me this is a 'rabbit hole', there's surely no difference. A way to rephrase the topic for consideration: would the same apply to audio in a movie you're streaming, is that also worthy of consideration? Again, surely not?

Probably not, but I thought that video thinking migrated to Hifi when we first started reading about ‘blacker blacks’ or ‘blacker background’!

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With wireless, it also goes without saying (or should) that the drivers need to be up to date and the adaptor you use can make a serious difference. We have 200Mb cable here. The setup is a bit complex, but basically I've set it up with the 'router' provided by the ISP to only work as a modem. This is connecky to a wireless router among other things. My desktop is two partition walls and a solid brick wall away, but with a Netgear adaptor I'm getting about 175Mb wireless.

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50 minutes ago, Shadders said:

All analogue cables are screened

I'm not using screened cables, IC or speaker.

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1 minute ago, rabski said:

With wireless, it also goes without saying (or should) that the drivers need to be up to date and the adaptor you use can make a serious difference. We have 200Mb cable here. The setup is a bit complex, but basically I've set it up with the 'router' provided by the ISP to only work as a modem. This is connecky to a wireless router among other things. My desktop is two partition walls and a solid brick wall away, but with a Netgear adaptor I'm getting about 175Mb wireless.

About 35mb is the fastest you get around here. 

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Just now, StingRay said:

About 35mb is the fastest you get around here. 

It's not that long ago when I was living in the middle of nowhere and could manage about 1Mb wired on a good day. And that was after raising hell with BT and having them come out and redo all sorts of stuff.

About the one joy of Virgin is that we've got cable here, and to be fair, it's lightening fast.

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